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Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 10:49:40 -0500
Message-ID: <CAFi=QfYfqcL9-sTdJePPZ8_Ha18iibBhUwT_4JyBJuLw2m3RCw@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Bafford <jbafford@zort.net>
Cc: Sascha Schumann <sascha.schumann@myrasecurity.com>, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>, 
	PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141075662d4bc0529391fa9
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Back to the code (was Re: Internals and Newcomers and
 the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct))
From: oldschooldsl@gmail.com (Adam Howard)

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Alright, you want a straight up answer, I'll provide you one.  Here is
my constructive criticism.  I'd like to be able to opt-out of this
conversation and not further have it flood my inbox and be able to actually
get back to what matters and what I and most everyone else signed up for
(PHP Development, Code).

 I'm not saying it doesn't have merit, but I've long since lost interest
and feel it is being unnecessarily drawn out and extended indefinitely (or
at least well beyond my point of interest)..

I feel you HAVE been given an answer numerous times and simply because you
dislike that answer(s), you refuse to move past it.
You seem to be under the false assumption that by complaining and dragging
this conversation out, people will give in blindly just to shut you up.
You're wrong.  If anything, it has only strengthen my resolve to pointing
out that this conversation is outside of the scope of the conversation that
I and others subscribed toward (PHP code development).

With that all said, your merit that there is a level of abuse that can
hypothetically take place is valid but no more so than anywhere else.

 Abuse happens.  People are not always nice.  And it doesn't matter where
you go, someone is likely going to be a bad apple.  Welcome to humanity  If
you know how to fix that level of humanity, please do share.  Because any
measure of change we could possibly make, anywhere, can and will be abused
by someone, always.  Writing down a guideline or code of conduct will not
change that.

But if you want to write that code of conduct, please, feel free to
actually publish an outline code of conduct here, right now, and I and
everyone else will be happy to review it.  Because as it stands now, all I
hear (read) is arguing and complaining, but you've yet to offer an actual
draft (solution).



On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 9:51 AM, John Bafford <jbafford@zort.net> wrote:

> Adam, Sascha,
>
> > On Jan 13, 2016, at 08:53, Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Well, I'm glad someone is in agreement.  I really wish we'd get back to
> the actual code.  Because if not, I do think perhaps PHP Internals as
> outlived the email format and should migrate to a forum format.  I think =
I
> and many others did not subscribe to a mailing list for this type of
> argument and at this point it is becoming hard to follow, assume you were
> interested in it.
> >
> > This little link http://www.php.net/unsub.php to unsubscribe is the
> last report, but if this all we're going to keep arguing about, it sure
> isn't going to encourage newbies, let alone long-timers such as myself.
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Sascha Schumann <
> sascha.schumann@myrasecurity.com> wrote:
> > > On January 12, 2016 at 7:05 PM Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Can we please move on past this and get back to actual code.  Because
> if
> > > not, perhaps PHP Internals has outgrown the email format and should
> migrate
> > > to a forum type format.
> >
> > Agreed.
>
> This is almost exactly the point I was trying to make.
>
> There is a serious problem with the conversation on internals, and the
> immediate reaction is, =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s no problem, this is a dis=
traction, stop
> talking about this and talk about something else=E2=80=9D.
>
> Even if you didn=E2=80=99t *mean* that, that=E2=80=99s what was heard.
>
>
> In one email, and one =E2=80=9Cme too=E2=80=9D follow-up you=E2=80=99ve:
>
> * attempted to silence an important discussion
> * suggested that that the opinion held (and Fran=C3=A7ois=E2=80=99 questi=
on) is not
> worthy of discussion
> * distracted the discussion with an unusable suggestion [* see below]
> * provided nothing constructive to help actually solve the problem
> * reinforced the notion that nothing is wrong and everything is fine.
>
> THIS is toxic internals.
>
>
> Let me elaborate on the third point, particularly the distracted and
> unusable bits:
>
> You make the assertion that this conversation is an indication that
> php-internals has outgrown email and should migrate platforms. And you
> propose an alternative.
>
> But you don=E2=80=99t explain *why* you think that this conversation has =
outgrown
> email, and even more importantly, you don=E2=80=99t you don=E2=80=99t act=
ually explain
> *why* a forum format would be an improvement.
>
> I=E2=80=99m not saying that a forum *couldn=E2=80=99t* be an improvement.=
 But without you
> giving any supporting argument, you=E2=80=99ve given nothing concrete tha=
t anyone
> can have a discussion about. It=E2=80=99s not actively helping to solve t=
he
> problem. It=E2=80=99s just more noise that serves to make people think th=
eir
> comments don=E2=80=99t matter. (For the record: I don=E2=80=99t like foru=
ms. And I really
> don=E2=80=99t see how forums would solve the culture problem. But me sayi=
ng that,
> and only that, is just as constructive as you saying only that we should
> switch to one.)
>
> So, your suggestion is unusable, because it provides nothing constructive
> or actionable; and it is a distraction because the platform we use to tal=
k
> is *entirely* irrelevant to how people hold conversations on that platfor=
m,
> and rather than discussing the problem, you try to talk about something
> completely unrelated instead.
>
>
> I didn=E2=80=99t sign up for internals looking to deal with this either. =
But there
> is a problem, and it is keeping me from actually contributing code. And
> I=E2=80=99ve been sitting on the sidelines here for a *long* time. I=E2=
=80=99m trying to
> make it so that newbies feel welcome to contribute. I=E2=80=99m trying to=
 make it
> so that the old-timers who have reduced their participation feel like the=
y
> can come back and be productive again.
>
> I would *love* to talk about code now. I wish we didn=E2=80=99t have to t=
alk about
> this. But silencing the conversation and wishing the problem away doesn=
=E2=80=99t
> fix the the giant elephpant in the room. It just *makes it worse*.
>
> -John
>
>

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