Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:90607
Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain zort.net designates 96.241.205.2 as permitted sender)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\))
In-Reply-To: <CAFi=Qfb=q5_NPwRXDCYJ1gbrmNTE2GxcLPgqCqtJhfZc8K2pdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 09:51:19 -0500
Cc: Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>,
        PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID: <FC51B60F-0163-4A3A-8F22-6D095500E55B@zort.net>
References: <8B865D2A-6762-430D-9EA1-9B693DE8E8C3@zort.net> <56948002.1080802@gmail.com> <A51E3740-45AD-4522-AFB6-74698066DB95@zort.net> <2011571282.3259.fd941ca0-f3d1-4b3c-8747-f8166ff46b39.open-xchange@ox.myrasec.de> <CAEZPtU6dg+BG=q81Yb8F8gqByktqJqmNuhTNRswq8KBd1RRtyQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAFi=QfZAuW7vnMAxnQYu+E4dObhahoMNz8xXk0TBzawty5tK8A@mail.gmail.com> <1440796552.3268.fd941ca0-f3d1-4b3c-8747-f8166ff46b39.open-xchange@ox.myrasec.de> <CAFi=Qfb=q5_NPwRXDCYJ1gbrmNTE2GxcLPgqCqtJhfZc8K2pdQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com>,
        Sascha Schumann <sascha.schumann@myrasecurity.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Back to the code (was Re: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct))
From: jbafford@zort.net (John Bafford)

Adam, Sascha,

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 08:53, Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Well, I'm glad someone is in agreement.  I really wish we'd get back =
to the actual code.  Because if not, I do think perhaps PHP Internals as =
outlived the email format and should migrate to a forum format.  I think =
I and many others did not subscribe to a mailing list for this type of =
argument and at this point it is becoming hard to follow, assume you =
were interested in it.
>=20
> This little link http://www.php.net/unsub.php to unsubscribe is the =
last report, but if this all we're going to keep arguing about, it sure =
isn't going to encourage newbies, let alone long-timers such as myself.
>=20
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 1:26 AM, Sascha Schumann =
<sascha.schumann@myrasecurity.com> wrote:
> > On January 12, 2016 at 7:05 PM Adam Howard <oldschooldsl@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> >
> > Can we please move on past this and get back to actual code.  =
Because if
> > not, perhaps PHP Internals has outgrown the email format and should =
migrate
> > to a forum type format.
>=20
> Agreed.

This is almost exactly the point I was trying to make.

There is a serious problem with the conversation on internals, and the =
immediate reaction is, =E2=80=9Cthere=E2=80=99s no problem, this is a =
distraction, stop talking about this and talk about something else=E2=80=9D=
.

Even if you didn=E2=80=99t *mean* that, that=E2=80=99s what was heard.


In one email, and one =E2=80=9Cme too=E2=80=9D follow-up you=E2=80=99ve:

* attempted to silence an important discussion
* suggested that that the opinion held (and Fran=C3=A7ois=E2=80=99 =
question) is not worthy of discussion
* distracted the discussion with an unusable suggestion [* see below]
* provided nothing constructive to help actually solve the problem
* reinforced the notion that nothing is wrong and everything is fine.

THIS is toxic internals.


Let me elaborate on the third point, particularly the distracted and =
unusable bits:

You make the assertion that this conversation is an indication that =
php-internals has outgrown email and should migrate platforms. And you =
propose an alternative.

But you don=E2=80=99t explain *why* you think that this conversation has =
outgrown email, and even more importantly, you don=E2=80=99t you don=E2=80=
=99t actually explain *why* a forum format would be an improvement.

I=E2=80=99m not saying that a forum *couldn=E2=80=99t* be an =
improvement. But without you giving any supporting argument, you=E2=80=99v=
e given nothing concrete that anyone can have a discussion about. It=E2=80=
=99s not actively helping to solve the problem. It=E2=80=99s just more =
noise that serves to make people think their comments don=E2=80=99t =
matter. (For the record: I don=E2=80=99t like forums. And I really =
don=E2=80=99t see how forums would solve the culture problem. But me =
saying that, and only that, is just as constructive as you saying only =
that we should switch to one.)

So, your suggestion is unusable, because it provides nothing =
constructive or actionable; and it is a distraction because the platform =
we use to talk is *entirely* irrelevant to how people hold conversations =
on that platform, and rather than discussing the problem, you try to =
talk about something completely unrelated instead.


I didn=E2=80=99t sign up for internals looking to deal with this either. =
But there is a problem, and it is keeping me from actually contributing =
code. And I=E2=80=99ve been sitting on the sidelines here for a *long* =
time. I=E2=80=99m trying to make it so that newbies feel welcome to =
contribute. I=E2=80=99m trying to make it so that the old-timers who =
have reduced their participation feel like they can come back and be =
productive again.

I would *love* to talk about code now. I wish we didn=E2=80=99t have to =
talk about this. But silencing the conversation and wishing the problem =
away doesn=E2=80=99t fix the the giant elephpant in the room. It just =
*makes it worse*.

-John