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Message-ID: <56951CE3.7000007@heigl.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 16:33:55 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki
From: andreas@heigl.org (Andreas Heigl)

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Am 12.01.16 um 15:53 schrieb Zeev Suraski:
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Andreas Heigl [mailto:andreas@heigl.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 4:21 PM
>> To: Eli <eli@eliw.com>; internals@lists.php.net
>> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Anonymous voting on wiki
>>
>> Am 12.01.16 um 15:06 schrieb Eli:
>>> On 1/12/16 5:16 AM, Dennis Birkholz wrote:
>>>> I don't think voting on an RFC is like electing your government. I
>>>> would compare it to how a House of Representatives works. And at lea=
st
>>>> here in Germany, they vote publicly except when electing people (e.g=
=2E
>>>> the Chancellor).
>>>
>>> That's a fine comparison.  But there is a big difference in how a Hou=
se
>>> vote is run, and a PHP RFC vote.  And that's one of time.
>>>
>>> A vote in the House (at least in the US, and I assume it's similar in=

>>> Germany).  Happens at a moment.
>>>
>>> Discussions happen.   Then a vote is called, everyone votes instantly=
=2E
>>> Yes, the votes do become public afterwards.  However there is not the=

>>> '2-3 week period' of voting that happens on a PHP RFC, wherein you vo=
te,
>>> and then while the vote is still up, and while you are allowed to cha=
nge
>>> your vote, everyone knows how you voted.
>>>
>>> Which then leads into the flurry of badgering for people to change th=
eir
>>> votes, beleaguering comments designed to help people change their vot=
e,
>>> and so on.
>>>
>>> Moving to at the very least a 'anonymous votes, and anonymous results=
,
>>> until after the vote is finished'.  Would make it much more like a
>>> 'House' vote.
>>>
>>> #2cents
>>> Eli
>>>
>> Can we please get clear on terms:
>>
>> 1. "Anonymous vote" in my eyes is a vote where no one is and will be
>> able to get information on who voted what. Never! Ever! The vote is an=
d
>> will remain anonymous.
>>
>> 2. "Public vote" on the opposite is where everyone knows even during t=
he
>> voting period who voted how. In Germany there's the so called
>> "Hammelsprung" where the members of the house vote by passing through
>> certain doors. One could influence them while queuing up for the door =
;)
>>
>> 3. An "Anonymous vote during voting period" vote that is anonymous
>> during the voting period (so no one can be actively influenced to
>> changing their vote) but after the voting period is over the vote is
>> publicly available. So everyone knows who voted what.
>=20
> Personally, I think we should stick with #2 except for (maybe) where th=
ere are extreme circumstances that require otherwise.  Primarily along th=
e lines of Peter's note, if people are afraid of the repercussions.  And =
like Peter, I don't believe we're there at all.

Personally I see it like that as well. But *if* we allow some kind of
otherwise voting, *which kind* of otherwise voting will we be using? And
under what circumstances will we be using this otherwise voting? what
are those "extreme circumstances"? Who defines them? Will they be on
CoC-Topics only? Or might they become available on language-topics as wel=
l?

I know those are provocative questions, but I think we have to answer
them for ourselfes before we should go on.

Those are not about already happened strong disagreements or threats and
it's not about trying to make past happenings harmless!

> We need to separate between healthy, respectful discussion - even when =
there are strong disagreements - and arm twisting or harassment.

And that's where this connection again connects to the CoC-Discussion.
Where does one end and the other start. It's a very personal point and
as soon as someone feels arm twisted or harassed we've all lost.
Therefore I think we should have a process that allows us to have votes
as safe as possible but as documented as necessary.

And the way to getting there needs to be as well documented as possible
as well to not get into any trouble in the end.

My 0.02=E2=82=AC

Cheers

Andreas

--=20
                                                              ,,,
                                                             (o o)
+---------------------------------------------------------ooO-(_)-Ooo-+
| Andreas Heigl                                                       |
| mailto:andreas@heigl.org                  N 50=C2=B022'59.5" E 08=C2=B0=
23'58" |
| http://andreas.heigl.org                       http://hei.gl/wiFKy7 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| http://hei.gl/root-ca                                               |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+


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