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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 22:46:58 -0500
Message-ID: <8B865D2A-6762-430D-9EA1-9B693DE8E8C3@zort.net>
Cc: Anthony Ferrara <ircmaxell@gmail.com>, David Zuelke <dz@heroku.com>,
        Stanislav Malyshev <smalyshev@gmail.com>,
        Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>,
        Brandon Savage <brandon@brandonsavage.net>,
        Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>
To: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>,
        =?utf-8?Q?Fran=C3=A7ois_Laupretre?= <francois@php.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\))
Subject: Internals and Newcomers and the Sidelines (WAS: Adopt Code of Conduct)
From: jbafford@zort.net (John Bafford)

[Apologies for the re-post; I=E2=80=99m re-sending this with a new =
subject because it=E2=80=99s really not about the CoC RFC.]

> On Jan 11, 2016, at 19:40, Fran=C3=A7ois Laupretre <francois@php.net> =
wrote:
>=20
> If we want to deal with the reasons why people avoid internals, the =
let's go and analyze the problem first ? I will start asking whether we =
really want to attract newcomers. The question may sound ridiculous but =
I think we don't, mostly because most people here see newcomers as just =
a source of annoyment and silly questions/RFCs. Additional evidence =
shows that we never did much effort to help integrate newcomers.
>=20
> So, the tone on the list is, IMO, just a small part of the problem. As =
long as there's no consensus on whether we want to attract newcomers and =
the effort we're ready to do to integrate them, discussing about the =
details of a CoC seems a bit prematurate to me.


I agree with this 100%.

This is yet another example of the toxic internals problem. Regardless =
of one's views on the CoC proposal, the conduct of php-internals as a =
whole has been reprehensible.

Whether anyone agrees with that statement or not is almost besides the =
point. Internals has a *reputation* for being toxic, and whether or not =
that reputation is justified, *it exists*, and internals is not doing =
anything to counter that reputation. Certainly not with the CoC =
discussion.

I have watched internals for probably ten years now. I have *never* =
gotten the impression that internals was actually seriously interested =
in cultivating newcomers. Lip service is paid from time to time, but at =
the end of the day, nothing ever changes.

So let's say, hypothetically, internals actually, seriously, wants =
newcomers.

I've used C since 1997, PHP since 1999, come from a CS background, and =
PHP is my favorite language (well, maybe it's a tie with Objective-C). =
At least, it's the language I use most often, so I have a vested =
interest in helping it get better. I am exactly the sort of person =
internals should be courting to join the "team".

And *every* time I start to think, "ok, I'm finally going to dust off =
those old patches and write some RFCs" this shit happens, and I =
reconsider and go back to lurk mode because I have no interest in =
participating in conversations about facists, whether real or imagined.

I've got one RFC under discussion, and another one in draft that should =
be ready for discussion soon. Hell, I had been collecting emails for a =
few weeks and was just about to start work on (what I had hoped would be =
an ongoing series of) a weekly summary of internals (similar to what =
Pascal Martin had been doing in 2014) as an excuse to actually read all =
of internals to help wrap my head around what was actually going on from =
a tech perspective. Then the CoC thing blows up, and it's all so =
disheartening. Makes me question whether putting in the effort was worth =
it, and well, you can forget about anyone trying to write an impartial =
summary of the CoC discussion.

And that's just internals. There's also apparently twitter and reddit =
flamewars and namecalling going on that I'm just as happy to know =
nothing about.

This is getting a bit ranty. But internals deserves it. You all may be =
great programmers, but in terms of making people *want* to work on =
php-src, you're shitty salespeople.

The reputation for internals being toxic surely bleeds over to everyone =
else who knocks PHP as being a shitty language. Only now, they get to =
say, "what a bunch of amateurs, the language devs can't even discuss a =
code of conduct without calling each other nazis".

Stop the nonsense. Get better, grow up, treat each other with respect, =
and act like the adults you are. I'd like to work with you all, but you =
make it dammned hard to want to.

-John

--=20
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