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Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 10:11:19 -0500
Message-ID: <CAAyV7nEQ3GySgPvoDB3Q7+pEXpK5zG0rue7s-VZYzX1j1EiHhQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brandon Savage <brandon@brandonsavage.net>
Cc: Larry Garfield <larry@garfieldtech.com>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [Draft] Adopt Code of Conduct
From: ircmaxell@gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara)

Brandon,

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 8:47 AM, Brandon Savage
<brandon@brandonsavage.net> wrote:
>>
>> At the same time, though, if someone is being maliciously hostile what
>> great cover!  A private email is not a PHP-Group managed resource, so no
>> rules!  Twitter, ha, no rules!  Reddit?  LOL like they enforce anything.
>> If someone wanted to send a death threat to another developer about PHP
>> business, I would hope that, as a developer, they are at least smart enough
>> then to do so using a chat program that is "out of scope" so that they're
>> untouchable.  (If they tried to send someone a death threat on list, we
>> should ban them for stupidity. :-) )
>>
>> That's why the scope needs to cover "involves PHP business, regardless of
>> medium" rather than "just on certain pieces of server infrastructure".
>> It's trivial to circumvent otherwise.  Now, how do we define "involves PHP
>> business" in a way that, for example, forbids someone from harassing a gay
>> person about PHP business but doesn't penalize someone for participating in
>> an anti-gay-marriage protest in their home town?  That's the question we
>> should be discussing: How that balance works to minimize that risk, and
>> avoid it being abused to Eich someone.  (Yes, I just used Eich's name as a
>> verb.)
>> <http://www.php.net/unsub.php>
>>
>>
> Larry,
>
> This is a great point, and brings up an interesting potential compromise
> that might work well for solving this issue.
>
> If the issue is that someone might take an on-list discussion and harass
> someone off-list, why not limit the jurisdiction to individuals who have
> participated on-list in discussion or voted on the issue?

Honestly, this feels like an overly broad hole. It would be easy for
someone to harass off-list, and then just claim "well, I haven't been
part of the discussion for X, so doesn't count". Plus harassment isn't
limited to just discussion on a certain topic.

> And that to me is the crux of the issue. When it comes to making
> discussions on internals more civilized, governing a person's conduct *as
> it relates to their participation in the discussion* is about as far as PHP
> should go. A person who is not a party to the discussion, who does not
> vote, but does have karma, who happens to tweet "I think X is a moron for
> proposing Y" is entitled to that opinion, *until they bring it here.*

While everyone is entitled to their opinion, sharing that opinion is
potentially another story. I think the exact quote you bring here is
one of the things a CoC is designed to prevent. I would absolutely
consider it bad if one karma-holding individual calls another a
"moron" at all in public for proposing an RFC. While we may disagree
with someone, we should hold ourselves to a constructive standard. The
vast majority of people here want to see PHP (as a project) improve.
Even if we don't agree with how someone approaches that, we should at
least hold ourselves to a level of mutual respect. Going out and
calling someone a moron in public is not constructive nor respectful,
and IMHO we as a project shouldn't sit back and blindly say "whatever"
if it happens.

Anthony