Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:90422 Return-Path: Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 13478 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2016 18:31:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 9 Jan 2016 18:31:07 -0000 Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=brandon@brandonsavage.net; spf=pass; sender-id=pass Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=brandon@brandonsavage.net; sender-id=pass Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain brandonsavage.net designates 209.85.223.169 as permitted sender) X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: brandon@brandonsavage.net X-Host-Fingerprint: 209.85.223.169 mail-io0-f169.google.com Received: from [209.85.223.169] ([209.85.223.169:35785] helo=mail-io0-f169.google.com) by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP id 67/E5-59249-8E151965 for ; Sat, 09 Jan 2016 13:31:06 -0500 Received: by mail-io0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 77so284252807ioc.2 for ; Sat, 09 Jan 2016 10:31:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=brandonsavage-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=gZevxXVmo4y4Wk2krnJlBjgCiGoLb0UksdWVCA9j1rw=; b=T1u4nxn9sdlRQoFbT+eltNUT3/14haInGM7miFUN/Y8EITGqve07buDr+lRFBBEYTP PPsU0z9VAb/pA5t2MpB+cERvFKCfjGcDKEQPrQdc0bGbm6xRi1DI2MNU0ePRUkLHXOH8 WUATez7hm9dzFfU2I3g36/CS+8SxrHMESzBtfdRLx82/xzfljs0um9QnAdm8h2bvEWfO GLwzoJoGHU1HYhAKUnWF9KIdi1vCVKUhIt9EDvYIn6yQ+Iyo5gsUqK7yNHIkDsUQA8th mDrOVc4WTADwRed4BSM181UUnbXVFWE+/+RWIadlJAwaU/sCFixzyjsx4u22v18kYRIm kW0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=gZevxXVmo4y4Wk2krnJlBjgCiGoLb0UksdWVCA9j1rw=; b=IrSaNRBo1ZY00MYMQZ4PGtIdIc7U82SDT3FpHo6ZfEEL8nzadDdcdNu2jrQoufcTzW Shfz2WyjpiT+1tPuXZzsy6Qjnho0HrIl4ACpp/O4Dnc1bE5DP32iQKc6SJldIIxGHL4K ipkETCzCMOx8xHlIfPSs0gybGoIYVptFsfEJQBzamryXIoDmExbza2dzsmEqXHnMdLmt 2fJHG0KMkULIZyIlqcaS5s2V6A1R6s+RIhHHe2Xdb/p0KdxE5h4YtTZplPwTJmzu5YHN ctj6fC2oHwv5UH/oVgEdQNnGiBfop7siam2tEcQQBBeyIdgcBoS7HzubEgBQuxDR9n8s v3Aw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlFWdt0+FXInYCT0CSurEXFtU29PzSlnhIIAx2Fwyt/4ZddvwXNJJuyEvk6NI1QbLjJ8WYmStxY9npr0IZfqAJykXiN4A== X-Received: by 10.107.2.65 with SMTP id 62mr88426595ioc.78.1452364261066; Sat, 09 Jan 2016 10:31:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.36.98.136 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Jan 2016 10:30:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <910b145571b2c3e98338d54c0dd6a981@mail.gmail.com> <568FEBB2.4090001@gmail.com> <569007F5.3030004@gmail.com> <56902C5E.2020401@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 13:30:41 -0500 Message-ID: To: PHP internals Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11396f40dda2790528eae790 Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [Draft] Adopt Code of Conduct From: brandon@brandonsavage.net (Brandon Savage) --001a11396f40dda2790528eae790 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 All, Having read all of the RFCs proposed to date, as well as the discussions around this topic, I have some questions that have yet to be answered, and that I would like to try and understand the answers to. Some quick background: I may program for a living, but I hold a degree in political science with an emphasis in law, government and political systems. In every judicial system (and that's essentially what we're creating here), the rights of the accuser are always balanced against the rights of the accused. Most western (European/American) cultures have a concept of "due process of law", along with certain rights reserved for the accused like the right to confront an accuser, the admissibility of evidence, conduct of the government and prosecutors, and the right to present a defense. In addition, there's almost always a standard of proof that must be offered prior to convicting the accused person of the alleged wrongdoing, along with an automatic presumption of innocence. Even in a very basic sense, we are asking a small group to sit in judgement over members of the community and regulate their conduct. This creates a de facto court. What we call it (mediation team, conflict resolution team, etc) doesn't take away from the fact that any group that can impose punishment on others creates some sort of judicial or legal system. This RFC does have real consequences for real people (imagine explaining being banned from the PHP project to a prospective employer), and I think it's worth noting that by applying the "reasonableness test" we've made improvements. There are some additional questions that are worth considering that might help improve this RFC. These are in no particular order. 1. We are asserting that privacy, for the accused AND the accuser, are a primary goal. Are we then outright rejecting the premise that the accused has a right to "confront the witnesses against them"? 2. What standard of proof do we want to use for these issues? Legal burdens of proof range from "reasonable suspicion" to "beyond a reasonable doubt." The RFC makes no mention of a standard of proof, and this is important, because the standard we use will impact what kind of evidence is required. (For more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof) 3. What standard are we using to authenticate evidence? Modifying documents, emails and tweets on the internet is very easy. Screenshots are not reliable evidence. Charges of fabrication can taint even the most legitimate process. How can we be sure that neither party engages in this type of behavior? 4. Is the accused REQUIRED to provide evidence in their defense? In American criminal courts (I can't speak to elsewhere), it's the obligation of the prosecution to make a prima facie case AND prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. A legitimate strategy for a defendant is to offer NO evidence, and poke holes in the prosecution's case, resting immediately after the prosecution does. Is that an option here? 5. In the same thread of the previous question, can silence or refusal to participate in the process be used against the accused? 6. What provisions exist for managing conflicts of interest? Examples: what if the accused is on the mediation team? Best friends with someone on the team? Married to someone on the team? Brother/sister of someone on the team? Works with someone on the team? Was somehow involved/observed the original incident in question and is cited as a witness by the accuser? At the end of the day, I don't think that the concept, or even the text, of the code of conduct is that controversial. For me, it's the enforcement mechanism that needs improvement to get my +1. Brandon --001a11396f40dda2790528eae790--