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Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 17:16:17 -0800
Message-ID: <CAESVnVqrXQHpYabkOZvVhbGVUNtQLLS_h=OsnaaQWhEeHWx+uw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com>
Cc: Anthony Ferrara <ircmaxell@gmail.com>, 
	"internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [RFC] [Draft] Adopt Code of Conduct
From: pollita@php.net (Sara Golemon)

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com> wrote:
> Having a CoC which is wider in scope and ratified by a voted RFC rather
> than an email on some mailing list sends a strong message.  Having it in
> our contributor guidelines would also go a long way.
>
> I guess here we fundamentally disagree - it seems that sending the message
> that 'we take this seriously' - by placing strong emphasis on reporting and
> penalties - is more important to some than agreeing about the values
> themselves.  For me, the values themselves and communicating them properly
> and prominently are infinitely more important than the policing mechanism,
> as I believe that stating them clearly would go a very long way and is
> anything but useless.
>
And maybe this RFC is trying to do too much at once.  Code diffs
should be scoped to "one change per diff", and RFCs should as well.

Anthony, would you be amenable to reducing this first RFC to just a
code of conduct.  This is; Define expectations from members of the
community.  No response team, no penalities (expressed or implied), no
language about "accused/accused/offender/etc...".  Just: "all
contributors and participants in the PHP project shall endeavor to be
nice (list example ways of being nice) and avoid being mean (list
example ways of being mean)".

Further evolution of that can come in later RFCs.  Or not if the
community doesn't think we need an official point of contact and/or
enumerated punitive actions.  Feeling the temperature in the room, I'd
lay money that the third leg of that proposal wouldn't ever fly.  Even
the second is questionable given concerns of confidentiality (or
secretiveness, depending on your position).  I'd hope the first,
simply stating expectations in a formalized way, will only have
limited pushback (due to concerns of over/under-specific language),
and we can take our time in reaching consensus on that one item.

If we can't even agree on that first stage, setting expectations of
profession behavior, then the rest of this conversation is irrelevant.

-Sara