Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:90171 Return-Path: Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 43137 invoked from network); 5 Jan 2016 23:38:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 5 Jan 2016 23:38:03 -0000 Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=larry@garfieldtech.com; sender-id=unknown Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=larry@garfieldtech.com; spf=permerror; sender-id=unknown Received-SPF: error (pb1.pair.com: domain garfieldtech.com from 66.111.4.28 cause and error) X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: larry@garfieldtech.com X-Host-Fingerprint: 66.111.4.28 out4-smtp.messagingengine.com Received: from [66.111.4.28] ([66.111.4.28:51099] helo=out4-smtp.messagingengine.com) by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP id 25/14-21755-9D35C865 for ; Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:38:02 -0500 Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E4FB20566 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 18:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend2 ([10.202.2.161]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 05 Jan 2016 18:37:59 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-sasl-enc:x-sasl-enc; s=smtpout; bh=I+z2wySLp8v9/s8 m8T9A3c+B4yE=; b=ZqpBJWWJZRzxtPDKUl0Ts1GMKbmdoxEdtI5FT7tREHhkl2d 50QiV4GWoX8IpPmo4Jv3EimhJBCQAYT+yaHFvgM/FpSW1BR6ftgadnMveDZoK2YA HiOhEYm6FaUJBX/cKzvL8ewFW7dCRNkCM87DxEbk1tMLDwbBdembgBkbhTq8= X-Sasl-enc: 4hmni2l5QYr+Rmys9thbNjHom3iD3eld2V6d0RKp2EUJ 1452037078 Received: from Crells-MacBook-Pro.local (unknown [63.250.249.138]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id BCF2968013F for ; Tue, 5 Jan 2016 18:37:58 -0500 (EST) To: internals@lists.php.net References: <66E04ACF-7363-4E47-BFFD-E380E5B1EA23@gmail.com> Message-ID: <568C53D6.3060800@garfieldtech.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 17:37:58 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.10; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <66E04ACF-7363-4E47-BFFD-E380E5B1EA23@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [Draft] Adopt Code of Conduct From: larry@garfieldtech.com (Larry Garfield) On 1/5/16 4:30 PM, Paul M. Jones wrote: >> On Jan 5, 2016, at 16:21, Nate Abele wrote: >> >> Hi Rowan, >> >> I don’t presume to speak for Paul, but I don’t think the point is that any particular person involved in this discussion is presumed to have a political intent, rather that CoCs themselves (the Contributor Covenant in particular), and the people typically agitating for them, come from a place of hyper-politicization. > Yes, that is an accurate summary of my position. It is also an inaccurate summary of your statements on this list to date, as well as elsewhere, which have been accusatory, vitriolic, insulting, and hyperbolic. Yes, there are hyper-politicized people who push CoCs and use "if you sneeze around me I'm mortally offended and will have you fired" type arguments. I do not dispute the presence and existence of such people. I also do not dispute the presence and existence of CoCs, and enforcements thereof, that are "guilty until proven innocent, which you're not allowed to do". That does not imply that all CoCs are inherently such documents or that all who support the concept of a CoC are hyper-politicized crusaders hell-bent on world baby-ification. I also do not dispute that there is an awful lot of really terrible PHP code in the wild that is riddled with more security holes than swiss cheese, written by people who, in the interests of public safety, should probably not be allowed to use a computer. Does it therefore follow that all PHP code is inherently insecure and PHP developers are all intrinsically incompetent? Of course not. Not even remotely. Most of us on this list, you included Paul, have been in a position to point that out, probably repeatedly. I dislike and would just as soon stamp out the "guilty until proven innocent" model of political correctness as much as you. But that doesn't mean the world is all rainbows and ponies if we just didn't have CoCs. There are real and legitimate issues in the IT world that need to be addressed, and a good CoC, fairly-enforced, is one useful tool in doing so. In fact, I would go as far as saying that if you want to stomp out the "guilty until proven innocent" CoC movement, then a major project (like PHP) adopting a CoC that *does* strike a softer tone, focuses on conflict resolution, has teeth but rarely needs them, and otherwise shows that *a CoC needn't be a tool of social control* is the best argument that can be made. Taking a balanced approach and showing that it can work is the best way to undermine and de-fang the extremists. (Both the "CoC as political weapon" crowd and the "I want the right to piss in your cheerios" crowd.) Modeling the behavior of an extremist, however, is the best way to reinforce and embolden the counter-extremist. -- --Larry Garfield