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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2015 11:04:01 -0500
Message-ID: <CAAyV7nFY8DaN1qMH3YNWo5cgD4s-eO5ekpCZRCqd_p7cOU1o7w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com>
Cc: Joe Watkins <pthreads@pthreads.org>, Julien Pauli <jpauli@php.net>, 
	Rasmus Lerdorf <rasmus@lerdorf.com>, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>, 
	Phil Sturgeon <pjsturgeon@gmail.com>, Xinchen Hui <laruence@php.net>, 
	Anatol Belski <anatol.php@belski.net>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] INDRECT in arrays causes count() to become unpredictable
From: ircmaxell@gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara)

Zeev,

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 23 =D7=91=D7=A0=D7=95=D7=91=D7=B3 2015, at 15:21, Anthony Ferrara <ir=
cmaxell@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Zeev and all,
>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 9:05 AM, Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> No, but both the seriousness of the bug AND the simplicity of the fix s=
it squarely outside any sort of "critical" definition.
>>
>> Perhaps, except that this bug was known by engine maintainers for
>> months. It actually took one of them saying it outright in a chat room
>> for me to be like "WTFBBQ" and raising this thread.
>
> A conspiracy to hide a not-very-important bug that took minutes to fix wo=
uld be a bit awkward.  I have no idea who knew about it, but even if someon=
e did, I can only imagine that the reason it wasn't disclosed was that they=
 didn't think much of it.  Whomever it was can shed light on this.

Conspiracy is a loaded term and not at all what I meant nor said. It
was known. And yes, I'm sure they didn't think much of it. That
doesn't mean that there aren't other cases where individuals made
tradeoffs that they feel are "worth it" but that others may not.
Considering this was definitely known in advance.

Causing one person to say "IS_INDIRECT is really kinda crappy, and
likely has many latent bugs. It sucks that things like count($array)
are no longer reliable but are now an upper-estimate" (SIC). That was
how I originally found out.

Heck Dmitry even admits it when he mentions that they had to work
around this very issue with serialize().

I'm not pointing fingers here. I'm not even saying people acted in bad
faith or anything remotely like that. I'm just saying that how many
other issues like this are waiting for us to find. Where people knew
about it but chose not to act because they "didn't think it was a big
deal" or "it wasn't worth the performance hit". And that's fine. But
at the same time it's concerning. And that's the point I was trying to
get across.

> Either way, looks like we're creating some really negative vibes, questio=
ning the very people who we owe gratitude for creating PHP 7, and in genera=
l, making an elephant out of a mouse.  Let's go back to elePHPants.

Who's creating negative vibes? We're pointing out that we need to be
more clear around the definition of stable and the expectations for a
".0" release. If that's not being "grateful", then you're right we
shouldn't be grateful. We should be professional enough to talk about
our outcomes separate from the effort that got us there. We all are
incredibly grateful to everyone that put forth effort. But that
doesn't mean we should make compromises "just to ship something".

Anthony