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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Move internals discussion to a better medium
From: johannes@schlueters.de (Johannes =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=)

On Tue, 2015-08-04 at 18:36 +0200, Ferenc Kovacs wrote:
> personally I would prefer moving to something like google groups and doing
> in a way that we can preserve archives (

I have no experience with google groups in a day o day usage  basis. So
I can't judge what they might do better. But a fun fact: PHP was started
in 1995, Google only in 1998.  Since 1995 many services and companies
came and left. I don't think it is wise to make our processes depend on
an external organization for which doesn't care about us. See i.e.
GitHub. It s nice that folks can easily contribute code there but even
if GitHub decides to shut down tomorrow it wouldn't have any impact on
us, which is good.

This mailing list is the heart of the php.net processes. So we should be
in control.

Yes, our own interfaces for outsiders aren't thaaaat nice. I remember
Kalle(?) was working on a newer news.php.net web interface. Not sure
what the state about that is. I believe that if the time used in this
discussion had been used to modernize news.php.net it would have been a
bigger benefit.

Finally a quick word about tools like Redmine, Jira etc. Those are nice
to formalize and enforce a structure and a process, but they work on
another premise than our project: Simplified they assume a corporate
environment where you plan your work and then assign your (human)
resources to items (yes, yes, way more "agile"! I know) but that's not
the environment we're having here: We can't reliably plan. Here
contributors can disappear any time and they do that. And at some point
they might find the time again and drop patches/proposals. And I think
it is important to keep this open process. While there's room for fine
tuning it, our RFC process does a good thing in documenting those drops
while making sure that PHP can be a fun project, not one which feels 
like work.

And I think it's incredible how little our entry barrier is. This
enabled us that most features post 5.3 where added by folks who haven't
been contributed before 5.3. It's really great to see all the new names
which appeared in the NEWS file! And even RMs. A few o the recent RMs
aren't long in the project either. And that in a project which isn't in
a small corner but which is a central piece of the Web. A wrong decision
here and tons of sites have issues. Tons of developers have to change
their code. I'm always fascinated about that. (also looking back at my
"PHP career" from that young kid who writes a small stupid patch nobody
would seriously consider to RM to conservative elder on the outside
complaining about all those patches nobody would consider by all these
young kids :-D)

Now back to other things,
johannes