Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:87517 Return-Path: Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 66887 invoked from network); 2 Aug 2015 15:57:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 2 Aug 2015 15:57:41 -0000 Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=andreas@heigl.org; sender-id=unknown Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=andreas@heigl.org; spf=permerror; sender-id=unknown Received-SPF: error (pb1.pair.com: domain heigl.org from 195.191.240.18 cause and error) X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: andreas@heigl.org X-Host-Fingerprint: 195.191.240.18 hos109.unaxus.net Received: from [195.191.240.18] ([195.191.240.18:35462] helo=hos109.unaxus.net) by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP id 51/51-55344-4FD3EB55 for ; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:57:41 -0400 Received: from tmo-103-162.customers.d1-online.com ([80.187.103.162]:25030 helo=[10.21.42.204]) by hos109.unaxus.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.85) (envelope-from ) id 1ZLvdo-000rax-M2; Sun, 02 Aug 2015 17:57:37 +0200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12H143) In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 17:57:34 +0200 Cc: Rowan Collins , PHP Internals Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID: References: <37DC5EF1-35B4-45A7-9065-5A7866336B06@gmail.com> To: Niklas Keller X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - hos109.unaxus.net X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - lists.php.net X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - heigl.org X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: hos109.unaxus.net: authenticated_id: a.heigl+heigl.org/only user confirmed/virtual account not confirmed Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Move internals discussion to a better medium From: andreas@heigl.org (Andreas Heigl) > Am 02.08.2015 um 17:12 schrieb Niklas Keller : >=20 > 2015-08-02 16:48 GMT+02:00 Andreas Heigl : >=20 >> Hi Niklas >>=20 >>> Am 02.08.2015 um 16:26 schrieb Niklas Keller : >>>=20 >>> 2015-08-02 15:29 GMT+02:00 Rowan Collins : >>>=20 >>>>> On 2 August 2015 13:54:46 BST, Niklas Keller wrote: >>>>> We're discussing issues here, so what's wrong with an issue tracker? >>>>=20 >>>> No, we're discussing every aspect of the project, from release >> management >>>> to personal introductions. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Release management, RFCs and other things totally fit something I'd call= >>> issue. >>> Personal introductions are a valid point, they're nothing I'd do with >>> issues, that's something that fits here. >>>=20 >>>> I can see more than one benefit. Probably most important is that you >>>>> can >>>>> follow just some things, instead of getting all the mails. >>>>=20 >>>> I subscribe with a gmail account, filter the list into its own folder, >>>> then pick out the threads I'm interested in using Thunderbird or K9 >> Mail. >>>> Most of the time there are only about half a dozen active threads >> anyway. >>>>=20 >>>>> Additionally, you >>>>> can ping people, that's not possible here, most mails are just "reply >>>>> all" >>>>> messages. >>>>=20 >>>> I CC'd you on this message; how is that not "pinging' you? Actually, >> it's >>>> a bit *too* easy, as a lot of the time "Reply to All" is simpler than >>>> "Reply to List". Either way, that's a feature issue trackers have >> borrowed >>>> from forums rather than vice versa. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> It's probably because GMail lacks a clear indication here. There is one,= >>> but not eye-catching enough. >>> Having a lot of clients to choose from with different features can >> totally >>> be a advantage, because everyone can choose the one that he / she likes >>> best, but there are also disadvantages like a higher barrier for new >> users >>> or non-regular users. >>=20 >> So basically we shall change a well established open source tool because >> gmail isn't capable of handling an RFC and Some developers are unable to >> setup their tools properly? Yes it is exagerating I know. But that' how I= >> currently feel about this topic. >=20 >=20 > I can see your point. I just think open source projects shouldn't have the= > need to setup a bunch of tools to contribute in a discussion. >=20 >=20 >>> TBH, it's not just about communication on the mailing list here. PHP's >> bug >>> tracker is a real PITA, at least for users without a php.net account. >>=20 >> I'm not sure why it's a PITA. you can search for issues without problems.= >> And if you miss certain functions you can open a PR. Yes, without karma y= ou >> can't change anything. Which - AFAIK - isn't possible in github or any >> other issue-tracker as well. And that's what we are talking about here. >=20 > Not being able to change anything without karma is totally fine, PRs are a= > good and established way here. Problem is more that if you want to discuss= > things here, you'd have to setup the tools you were talking about, just to= > follow a single discussion. >=20 You can open a PR on github and do your conversation on that PR on github. O= n PHP.net the PR is added to the issue. So you already can have PRs and disc= ussion on them on bugs.php.net. And you can also register yourself to track a= n issue on the bugtracker and get informed of all future changes and comment= s. So you can comment on the Issue AND on the PR. All currently possible. Ye= s, the "follow an issue" could be somewhat easier to setup. Feel free to ope= n a PR against the bugtracker.=20 Perhaps we need a place to describe what's already possible with the current= ly available tools and describe how to more easily get setup for internals. O= r link the already existing resources together and display them more promine= nt and self-confident.=20 I won't be able to do anything like that in the next 2 weeks but can think a= bout it afterwards. Not that I think I'm the right person for the job but I h= ate that "someone should do something"... So ball is in play! >=20 >>>=20 >>> How about a tool like Phabricator? >>=20 >> And why not Jira? Or bugzilla? Or Bitbucket? Or gitlab? or github? or ...= >=20 > All of them would be better than the current PHP bug tracker, Phabricator > was just an example for a open tool better than the current system. Hey, > there isn't even a login for users without php.net account. >=20 >=20 >> Why not use the existing tools and spend the time lost in such discussion= s >> by instead making these tools awesome? >=20 > Yeah, good question, why was php-bugs created again? Because when it was created in 2001 nothing else existed (written in PHP at l= east).=20 Cheers Andreas