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Date: Sun, 2 Aug 2015 17:12:02 +0200
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To: Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>
Cc: Rowan Collins <rowan.collins@gmail.com>, PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Move internals discussion to a better medium
From: me@kelunik.com (Niklas Keller)

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2015-08-02 16:48 GMT+02:00 Andreas Heigl <andreas@heigl.org>:

> Hi Niklas
>
> > Am 02.08.2015 um 16:26 schrieb Niklas Keller <me@kelunik.com>:
> >
> > 2015-08-02 15:29 GMT+02:00 Rowan Collins <rowan.collins@gmail.com>:
> >
> >>> On 2 August 2015 13:54:46 BST, Niklas Keller <me@kelunik.com> wrote:
> >>> We're discussing issues here, so what's wrong with an issue tracker?
> >>
> >> No, we're discussing every aspect of the project, from release
> management
> >> to personal introductions.
> >
> >
> > Release management, RFCs and other things totally fit something I'd call
> > issue.
> > Personal introductions are a valid point, they're nothing I'd do with
> > issues, that's something that fits here.
> >
> >> I can see more than one benefit. Probably most important is that you
> >>> can
> >>> follow just some things, instead of getting all the mails.
> >>
> >> I subscribe with a gmail account, filter the list into its own folder,
> >> then pick out the threads I'm interested in using Thunderbird or K9
> Mail.
> >> Most of the time there are only about half a dozen active threads
> anyway.
> >>
> >>> Additionally, you
> >>> can ping people, that's not possible here, most mails are just "reply
> >>> all"
> >>> messages.
> >>
> >> I CC'd you on this message; how is that not "pinging' you? Actually,
> it's
> >> a bit *too* easy, as a lot of the time "Reply to All" is simpler than
> >> "Reply to List". Either way, that's a feature issue trackers have
> borrowed
> >> from forums rather than vice versa.
> >
> >
> > It's probably because GMail lacks a clear indication here. There is one,
> > but not eye-catching enough.
> > Having a lot of clients to choose from with different features can
> totally
> > be a advantage, because everyone can choose the one that he / she likes
> > best, but there are also disadvantages like a higher barrier for new
> users
> > or non-regular users.
>
> So basically we shall change a well established open source tool because
> gmail isn't capable of handling an RFC and Some developers are unable to
> setup their tools properly? Yes it is exagerating I know. But that' how I
> currently feel about this topic.


I can see your point. I just think open source projects shouldn't have the
need to setup a bunch of tools to contribute in a discussion.


> > TBH, it's not just about communication on the mailing list here. PHP's
> bug
> > tracker is a real PITA, at least for users without a php.net account.
>
> I'm not sure why it's a PITA. you can search for issues without problems.
> And if you miss certain functions you can open a PR. Yes, without karma you
> can't change anything. Which - AFAIK - isn't possible in github or any
> other issue-tracker as well. And that's what we are talking about here.
>

Not being able to change anything without karma is totally fine, PRs are a
good and established way here. Problem is more that if you want to discuss
things here, you'd have to setup the tools you were talking about, just to
follow a single discussion.


> >
> > How about a tool like Phabricator?
>
> And why not Jira? Or bugzilla? Or Bitbucket? Or gitlab? or github? or ...
>

All of them would be better than the current PHP bug tracker, Phabricator
was just an example for a open tool better than the current system. Hey,
there isn't even a login for users without php.net account.


> Why not use the existing tools and spend the time lost in such discussions
> by instead making these tools awesome?
>

Yeah, good question, why was php-bugs created again?

Regards, Niklas


> Cheers
>
> Andreas
>

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