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In-Reply-To: <7AFD41A7-2612-40CC-A0E2-2A95034F7A5B@koehntopp.de>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2015 15:23:28 +0100
Cc: "internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Message-ID: <8CF37FE9-ECC3-425D-ACD0-6750935F888E@koehntopp.de>
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To: Anthony Ferrara <ircmaxell@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Voting irregularities
From: kris@koehntopp.de (=?utf-8?Q?Kristian_K=C3=B6hntopp?=)

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> On 16.03.2015, at 15:03, Kristian K=C3=B6hntopp <kris@koehntopp.de> =
wrote:
>=20
> That is me. And I voted no on a broken poposal.

And because some people asked, the kk account is not new.

I have been using PHP since about 1997/98, joining the community around =
the times of the first PHP 3.0 beta-releases. Boris Erdmann and I wrote =
something called PHPLIB =
(http://marc.info/?l=3Dphp-general&amp;m=3D90222503034131&amp;w=3D2, =
http://marc.info/?l=3Dphp-general&amp;m=3D90281652210710&amp;w=3D2) =
which implemented some kind of session management that has been =
rewritten into the session module of PHP 4.

I also wrote the Posix and Recode extensions back then, worked on the =
LDAP extension, and dissed Zeev because of the C++ way of implementing =
constructors instead of using __init or __construct =
(http://www.mail-archive.com/php-dev@lists.php.net/msg36275.html, and =
many other messages before that). I also annoyed people into =
implementing __get, __set and __call, which over time became =
http://php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.magic.php

I blogged =
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+KristianK%C3%B6hntopp/posts/ijoDNH2M8mB, =
and apparently that motivated a number of people to look into this and =
form an opinion, which is good. PHP already has too many things that can =
be enabled and disabled at the language level, and too many ways to =
enable and disable functionality in the language. It should have one =
typing system, not many and certainly not any way to switch these on and =
off, no matter how.

At the current state and climate of discussion I personally think it =
would be best for the language and the community for each and every =
proposal to change the type system to fail or be withdrawn.

=46rom my current experience, it may have been best for the language  to =
have chosen the Python way of things back 20 years ago

>>> 3 + "2"
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
TypeError: unsupported operand type(s) for +: 'int' and 'str'
>>> 3 + int("2")
5
>>> 3 + int("2a")
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
ValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: '2a'

but it is too late now. Neither of the current proposals actually =
improves a lot for anybody, but making that improvement optional, how =
little it may ever be, is just insane.

If you MUST have one proposal succeeding, I am of the opinion that one =
should support the one by Zeev with the modification that it actually =
warns about things instead of erroring right now (E_DEPRECATED or =
something), and make that errors in the release after the current. I do =
think that because it is ONE type system, not optional and because it =
actually finds things that are broken and complains about these. Just =
make the transition more gradual than it is now, in order to ease =
adoption.

K

--
Kristian K=C3=B6hntopp http://google.com/+KristianKohntopp


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