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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 21:42:26 +0100
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To: Andi Gutmans <andi@zend.com>
Cc: Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me>, PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Scalar Type Hints
From: stelianm@php.net (Stelian Mocanita)

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Sending people who want to have more structure in the language to Java
is downright bad, not to mention that it sounds completely dictatorial. I
would just put that in the next Zend newsletter to make it clear for your
customers that there is a saner option.

Stelian

On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 12:57 AM, Andi Gutmans <andi@zend.com> wrote:

> The folks who really want all this great strict typing should head over t=
o
> Oracle.com and download free open-source Java? I hear it's got a lot of
> strict typing features in it. Only downside is that it'll take them 10x
> longer to complete their projects. OK sorry. Had to say that :) I realize
> it's not the same...
>
> Andrea, while I don't agree with what you say I accept it. *But* exactly
> for the reasons you state (the big divide) we should also have a weak typ=
e
> hinting option to vote for in parallel. If you feel morally unable to do
> that then I can copy your work and just have another RFC running in
> parallel but I think that would do a disservice to the good work you've
> done.
>
> Andi
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:47 PM, Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me> wrote:
>
> > Hi Andi,
> >
> > > On 5 Feb 2015, at 23:22, Andi Gutmans <andi@zend.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have to say I=E2=80=99m pretty disappointed at the opening of the v=
ote.
> > > We had a pretty good RFC (thank you) for weak type hinting which was
> > aligned with the spirit of PHP and everyone was able to rally around it=
.
> >
> > This is far from true. Some people on internals were happy, but only
> some,
> > and everywhere outside internals I looked, the reception was far more
> > negative.
> >
> > > This has now been morphed into something very hard to swallow and IMO
> > having such a declare(=E2=80=A6) syntax will be ridiculed by the broade=
r app dev
> > community until the end of time=E2=80=A6
> >
> > Nobody mocks Perl or JS for use strict.
> >
> > > But even that syntax aside (it=E2=80=99s only syntax after all), I th=
ink we
> lost
> > the ability to reach consensus on something so important to everyone
> which
> > we haven=E2=80=99t been able to come to agreement on for over 10 years.=
 Finally
> it
> > was there, in reach and you made a 180 degree turn.
> >
> > =E2=80=9CConsensus=E2=80=9D is exaggerated. There was no consensus and =
to claim there was
> > is to ignore the reality that the PHP community is divided over this
> issue.
> > I=E2=80=99d love to say that everyone loves weak type hints and if that=
 version
> had
> > passed we=E2=80=99d all be dancing around happy holding hands, but the =
reception
> > was not uniformly positive, not even close, and that=E2=80=99s just on =
internals.
> >
> > > I think it=E2=80=99d be so much easier for us to implement weak type =
hinting.
> > Have everyone rally around it. Be happy and then learn and see whether =
an
> > additional mechanism is really necessary.
> >
> > Who=E2=80=99d be happy? I realise you and Zeev are big fans of weak typ=
es, as are
> > many others, but there are also a lot of PHP developers who vehemently
> > disagree with you.
> >
> > > We could even add an E_STRICT_TYPES error_reporting flag to help folk=
s
> > =E2=80=9Cdebug=E2=80=9D their code if they so wish to see if there are =
any hotspots in
> > their code they may want to take a look at - again not necessarily an
> error
> > but maybe a debugging tool.
> >
> > Global error handlers affect all code the interpreter runs, which is wh=
y
> > we=E2=80=99ve looked down on them in recent times.
> >
> > > But net, net - why not just implement the thing everyone can agree on=
.
> >
> > Everyone doesn=E2=80=99t agree on it.
> >
> > If everyone did agree on it, v0.1 of the RFC would have been the one th=
at
> > went to vote.
> >
> > > Have something really good in the spirit of the PHP Language for PHP =
7
> > and learn how people leverage that=E2=80=A6 The reality is that for the=
 majority
> of
> > the Web community =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D coming in from HTTP should be acc=
epted as a 1.
> Period.
> >
> > It=E2=80=99s very well and good you claiming that the =E2=80=9Cmajority=
=E2=80=9D agree, but this
> > does not match my experiences. The PHP community is not a single,
> > homogenous entity. It is very difficult to judge.
> >
> > > I voted =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D but I will vote =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D fo=
r the competing RFC which is 80%
> of
> > your RFC. Why are we not given that option??????
> >
> > Because I cannot in good conscience push through something in the name =
of
> > =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D which does not even approach it.
> >
> > --
> > Andrea Faulds
> > http://ajf.me/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

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