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Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2015 00:05:31 +0000
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References: <8703B53E-2C4A-4AC6-95C4-D4F19C6D5221@ajf.me> <D5E65B07-2366-4A14-97BF-780267200717@zend.com> <DFBE8CD2-F740-4399-A44E-7AC0625ECEA2@ajf.me> <CAN383GD6K8YBnvZDyq4STgCAyQA_PUdJeFdXhgw_v7XezALkFw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andi Gutmans <andi@zend.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Scalar Type Hints
From: ajf@ajf.me (Andrea Faulds)

Hi Andi,

> On 5 Feb 2015, at 23:57, Andi Gutmans <andi@zend.com> wrote:
>=20
> The folks who really want all this great strict typing should head =
over to Oracle.com and download free open-source Java? I hear it's got a =
lot of strict typing features in it. Only downside is that it'll take =
them 10x longer to complete their projects. OK sorry. Had to say that :) =
I realize it's not the same=E2=80=A6

I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s terribly funny to tell a large =
portion of the PHP community to go away.

> Andrea, while I don't agree with what you say I accept it. *But* =
exactly for the reasons you state (the big divide) we should also have a =
weak type hinting option to vote for in parallel. If you feel morally =
unable to do that then I can copy your work and just have another RFC =
running in parallel but I think that would do a disservice to the good =
work you've done.

No, I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s fair. I=E2=80=99d be against =
holding a vote on strict types only for the same reason: the community =
is divided. Letting one side =E2=80=9Cwin" is simply unfair on everyone =
else.

To quote myself in the Scalar Type Hints thread, here=E2=80=99s a rough =
tally of who was in favour of what in the v0.1 thread (I think =
=E2=80=9Cyourself=E2=80=9D was Zeev in that context):

> On 15 Jan 2015, at 14:51, Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me> wrote:
>=20
> Let=E2=80=99s have a look. =46rom a quick skim over the thread for =
v0.1:
>=20
> * In favour of weak types (or the RFC anyway): Adam, Stas, yourself, =
Jordi, Pierre,
> * Against, in favour of strict types: Maxime, Nikita, Markus, Marco, =
Leigh, Levi, Sven(?)
> * In favour of strict types, not against weak types as compromise: =
Matthew
> * Somewhat in favour: Sebastian
> * In favour of allowing both approaches: Marcio, Thomas, Marco
>=20
> I apologise if I am misrepresenting anyone=E2=80=99s position.
>=20
> This is unlikely to be super-representative of the PHP community. =
However, I=E2=80=99m not sure I=E2=80=99d say =E2=80=9Coverwhelmingly =
positive=E2=80=9D. It can be easy to get confirmation bias when reading =
RFC threads.
>=20
> It is very clear to me that a lot of people would like strict types, =
and some people would like weak types. As to their relative numbers, I =
cannot say.
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s really fair to cover only the use =
case of one half of the PHP community. The other half counts too. This =
is a rather divisive issue.

As is rather clear, there was no such consensus on internals. =
Confirmation bias can be a powerful thing, and it=E2=80=99s easy to =
forget that the number of messages doesn=E2=80=99t reflect the number of =
participants.

The views on other places were, from my experience, even more against =
weak types than internals. Internals seems to be the most pro-weak types =
PHP community I=E2=80=99m a part of.

Because of this schism, I really think it would be completely unfair to =
force through weak types. I know internals might like it (or some of =
internals, anyway), and I know you and Zeev certainly do, but it=E2=80=99s=
 not as clear-cut in the wider community.

This isn=E2=80=99t some minor issue, either: it=E2=80=99s a very =
frequently resurfacing topic, and one which is particularly divisive. =
It=E2=80=99s not some minor syntax issue that merely holding a vote will =
solve.

--
Andrea Faulds
http://ajf.me/