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Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2015 15:57:51 -0800
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To: Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me>
Cc: PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Scalar Type Hints
From: andi@zend.com (Andi Gutmans)

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The folks who really want all this great strict typing should head over to
Oracle.com and download free open-source Java? I hear it's got a lot of
strict typing features in it. Only downside is that it'll take them 10x
longer to complete their projects. OK sorry. Had to say that :) I realize
it's not the same...

Andrea, while I don't agree with what you say I accept it. *But* exactly
for the reasons you state (the big divide) we should also have a weak type
hinting option to vote for in parallel. If you feel morally unable to do
that then I can copy your work and just have another RFC running in
parallel but I think that would do a disservice to the good work you've
done.

Andi


On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:47 PM, Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me> wrote:

> Hi Andi,
>
> > On 5 Feb 2015, at 23:22, Andi Gutmans <andi@zend.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have to say I=E2=80=99m pretty disappointed at the opening of the vot=
e.
> > We had a pretty good RFC (thank you) for weak type hinting which was
> aligned with the spirit of PHP and everyone was able to rally around it.
>
> This is far from true. Some people on internals were happy, but only some=
,
> and everywhere outside internals I looked, the reception was far more
> negative.
>
> > This has now been morphed into something very hard to swallow and IMO
> having such a declare(=E2=80=A6) syntax will be ridiculed by the broader =
app dev
> community until the end of time=E2=80=A6
>
> Nobody mocks Perl or JS for use strict.
>
> > But even that syntax aside (it=E2=80=99s only syntax after all), I thin=
k we lost
> the ability to reach consensus on something so important to everyone whic=
h
> we haven=E2=80=99t been able to come to agreement on for over 10 years. F=
inally it
> was there, in reach and you made a 180 degree turn.
>
> =E2=80=9CConsensus=E2=80=9D is exaggerated. There was no consensus and to=
 claim there was
> is to ignore the reality that the PHP community is divided over this issu=
e.
> I=E2=80=99d love to say that everyone loves weak type hints and if that v=
ersion had
> passed we=E2=80=99d all be dancing around happy holding hands, but the re=
ception
> was not uniformly positive, not even close, and that=E2=80=99s just on in=
ternals.
>
> > I think it=E2=80=99d be so much easier for us to implement weak type hi=
nting.
> Have everyone rally around it. Be happy and then learn and see whether an
> additional mechanism is really necessary.
>
> Who=E2=80=99d be happy? I realise you and Zeev are big fans of weak types=
, as are
> many others, but there are also a lot of PHP developers who vehemently
> disagree with you.
>
> > We could even add an E_STRICT_TYPES error_reporting flag to help folks
> =E2=80=9Cdebug=E2=80=9D their code if they so wish to see if there are an=
y hotspots in
> their code they may want to take a look at - again not necessarily an err=
or
> but maybe a debugging tool.
>
> Global error handlers affect all code the interpreter runs, which is why
> we=E2=80=99ve looked down on them in recent times.
>
> > But net, net - why not just implement the thing everyone can agree on.
>
> Everyone doesn=E2=80=99t agree on it.
>
> If everyone did agree on it, v0.1 of the RFC would have been the one that
> went to vote.
>
> > Have something really good in the spirit of the PHP Language for PHP 7
> and learn how people leverage that=E2=80=A6 The reality is that for the m=
ajority of
> the Web community =E2=80=9C1=E2=80=9D coming in from HTTP should be accep=
ted as a 1. Period.
>
> It=E2=80=99s very well and good you claiming that the =E2=80=9Cmajority=
=E2=80=9D agree, but this
> does not match my experiences. The PHP community is not a single,
> homogenous entity. It is very difficult to judge.
>
> > I voted =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D but I will vote =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D for =
the competing RFC which is 80% of
> your RFC. Why are we not given that option??????
>
> Because I cannot in good conscience push through something in the name of
> =E2=80=9Cconsensus=E2=80=9D which does not even approach it.
>
> --
> Andrea Faulds
> http://ajf.me/
>
>
>
>
>

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