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In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.11.1410261047380.4012@whisky.home.derickrethans.nl>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 16:41:17 +0100
CC: Joe Watkins <pthreads@pthreads.org>,
 PHP Developers Mailing List <internals@lists.php.net>
References: <php-mail-d1dee1060d0e519b421e241f31037078549681831@git.php.net> <alpine.DEB.2.11.1410242103530.4012@whisky.home.derickrethans.nl> <1414217636.2624.89.camel@localhost.localdomain> <alpine.DEB.2.11.1410261047380.4012@whisky.home.derickrethans.nl>
To: Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHPDBG nonsense (Was: Re: [PHP-CVS] com php-src: Made phpdbg compatible with new engine: ...)
From: bobwei9@hotmail.com (Bob Weinand)

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> Am 26.10.2014 um 16:09 schrieb Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>:
>=20
> On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Joe Watkins wrote:
>=20
>> On Fri, 2014-10-24 at 23:06 -0400, Derick Rethans wrote:
>>> On Fri, 24 Oct 2014, Bob Weinand wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Commit:    2bcac53bca8ea82d661f057b6d9ff3c7c84f05a7
>>>> Author:    Bob Weinand <bobwei9@hotmail.com>         Fri, 24 Oct =
2014 19:29:50 +0200
>>>> Parents:   53560ca06b333b71883269091f7d74c0a25e087b =
c03ac47bafd0ea55055a2f3d4de0bc6bb4d98d8d
>>>> Branches:  master
>>>>=20
>>>> Link:       =
http://git.php.net/?p=3Dphp-src.git;a=3Dcommitdiff;h=3D2bcac53bca8ea82d661=
f057b6d9ff3c7c84f05a7
>>>>=20
>>>> Log:
>>>> Made phpdbg compatible with new engine
>>>=20
>>> <snip>
>>>>  AM  sapi/phpdbg/xml.md
>>>=20
>>> Although this patch does make it work with PHP 7, it also does do=20
>>> something absolutely different: it reinvents a wheel by coming up=20
>>> with a new XML protocol for debugging.
>>>=20
>>> So far I've been silent on PHPDBG, but seriously, is it really not=20=

>>> possible to cooperate instead of reimplementating something that=20
>>> already exists? PHPDBG is difficult to use with its odd command line=20=

>>> "commands". And then I haven't even spoken about the pretentious=20
>>> "awesomesauce" on http://phpdbg.com/ =E2=80=94 a domain that's not =
even=20
>>> under the PHP group's control.
>>=20
>> A few weeks ago, I was at a conference where you told a room filled=20=

>> with hundreds of developers that phpdbg was no good, because you =
don't=20
>> know how to use it.
>=20
> I was being polite. I should have told them it is useles for any of =
our=20
> users, instead of blaming it (wrongly) on my own ineptitude.

No, xDebug has its use cases, phpdbg other use cases. They overlap many =
times. And it=E2=80=99s definitely not useless. I=E2=80=99ve already =
been able to debug real things with phpdbg and it works nicely for me.

>> This is a strange sort of silence, and does not invite us to=20
>> co-operate.
>=20
> Neither does calling internals people "dicks" or "knobs=E2=80=9C.

That=E2=80=99s definitely a bad thing=E2=80=A6 could we please leave =
this genre of discussion out of internals?

>> When you invented dbgp there were other protocols in existence,=20
>=20
> There indeed where, but none of them were either open, or supporting=20=

> more than one language. As that was the goal, the people from=20
> ActiveState=E2=80=94which *still, ten years later* have the best =
debugger=20
> frontend=E2=80=94and I sat around a table and implemented a =
language-agnostic=20
> debugging protocol. Used by Xdebug, and their debuggers for perl,=20
> python, tcl, ruby, and XSLT. =20

Hmm? I hardly could find anything about that with a few google =
searches...

>> not sure why we are expected to reuse a protocol.
>=20
> Because DBGp is virtually a standard in the PHP world.=20

Because something is used by the only open-source thing in a field, it =
doesn=E2=80=99t make it a standard.
That you definitely have gotten wrongly.

>> It so happens that the phpstorm guys working on integration seemed=20
>> keen on something new. I don't see the problem in that. If the only=20=

>> reason it exists is for projects like phpstorm and they are actually=20=

>> going to put time into trying something new, then why the hell not.
>=20
> Well, if you'd have used DBGp, they wouldn't have to do any work.

Ask them at PhpStorm. They were pleased to not have to use DBGp for it.
They just initially requested it because they didn=E2=80=99t knew any =
better protocol. That=E2=80=99s all.

>> I'm not sure why it matters what kind of language we use on=20
>> phpdbg.com <http://phpdbg.com/>, not sure why you think it should be =
under the control of=20
>> the php group either.
>=20
> It shouldn't be anywhere near the PHP group either.
>=20
> It is run as a personal project with source dumps into PHP. Things run=20=

> like that have no place in the core distribution. If you want to run=20=

> your personal project, go ahead - but keep php.net <http://php.net/> =
out of it.

phpdbg.com <http://phpdbg.com/> is outdated, massively. That=E2=80=99s =
why we=E2=80=99re currently aiming to get a meaningful documentation to =
php.net <http://php.net/>.

>> If you had wanted to co-operate, you could have spoken to me at that=20=

>> conference in person,
>=20
> I tried. You disappeared after the first afternoon.

Maybe, but if you wouldn=E2=80=99t have given such a negatively talk on =
the phpdbg part, he maybe wouldn=E2=80=99t have disappeared. Maybe you =
just could have talked to Joe before and discussed constructively about =
phpdbg.=20

> cheers,
> Derick
>=20
> --=20
> http://derickrethans.nl <http://derickrethans.nl/> | http://xdebug.org =
<http://xdebug.org/>
> Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php =
<http://xdebug.org/donate.php>
> twitter: @derickr and @xdebug
> Posted with an email client that doesn't mangle email: alpine

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