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Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2014 11:09:01 -0400 (EDT)
To: Joe Watkins <pthreads@pthreads.org>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHPDBG nonsense (Was: Re: [PHP-CVS] com php-src: Made
 phpdbg compatible with new engine: ...)
From: derick@php.net (Derick Rethans)

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On Sat, 25 Oct 2014, Joe Watkins wrote:

> On Fri, 2014-10-24 at 23:06 -0400, Derick Rethans wrote:
> > On Fri, 24 Oct 2014, Bob Weinand wrote:
> >=20
> > > Commit:    2bcac53bca8ea82d661f057b6d9ff3c7c84f05a7
> > > Author:    Bob Weinand <bobwei9@hotmail.com>         Fri, 24 Oct 2014=
 19:29:50 +0200
> > > Parents:   53560ca06b333b71883269091f7d74c0a25e087b c03ac47bafd0ea550=
55a2f3d4de0bc6bb4d98d8d
> > > Branches:  master
> > >=20
> > > Link:       http://git.php.net/?p=3Dphp-src.git;a=3Dcommitdiff;h=3D2b=
cac53bca8ea82d661f057b6d9ff3c7c84f05a7
> > >=20
> > > Log:
> > > Made phpdbg compatible with new engine
> >=20
> > <snip>
> > >   AM  sapi/phpdbg/xml.md
> >=20
> > Although this patch does make it work with PHP 7, it also does do=20
> > something absolutely different: it reinvents a wheel by coming up=20
> > with a new XML protocol for debugging.
> >=20
> > So far I've been silent on PHPDBG, but seriously, is it really not=20
> > possible to cooperate instead of reimplementating something that=20
> > already exists? PHPDBG is difficult to use with its odd command line=20
> > "commands". And then I haven't even spoken about the pretentious=20
> > "awesomesauce" on http://phpdbg.com/ =E2=80=94 a domain that's not even=
=20
> > under the PHP group's control.
>=20
> A few weeks ago, I was at a conference where you told a room filled=20
> with hundreds of developers that phpdbg was no good, because you don't=20
> know how to use it.

I was being polite. I should have told them it is useles for any of our=20
users, instead of blaming it (wrongly) on my own ineptitude.

> This is a strange sort of silence, and does not invite us to=20
> co-operate.

Neither does calling internals people "dicks" or "knobs".

> When you invented dbgp there were other protocols in existence,=20

There indeed where, but none of them were either open, or supporting=20
more than one language. As that was the goal, the people from=20
ActiveState=E2=80=94which *still, ten years later* have the best debugger=
=20
frontend=E2=80=94and I sat around a table and implemented a language-agnost=
ic=20
debugging protocol. Used by Xdebug, and their debuggers for perl,=20
python, tcl, ruby, and XSLT. =20

> not sure why we are expected to reuse a protocol.

Because DBGp is virtually a standard in the PHP world.=20


> It so happens that the phpstorm guys working on integration seemed=20
> keen on something new. I don't see the problem in that. If the only=20
> reason it exists is for projects like phpstorm and they are actually=20
> going to put time into trying something new, then why the hell not.

Well, if you'd have used DBGp, they wouldn't have to do any work.
=20
> I'm not sure why it matters what kind of language we use on=20
> phpdbg.com, not sure why you think it should be under the control of=20
> the php group either.

It shouldn't be anywhere near the PHP group either.

It is run as a personal project with source dumps into PHP. Things run=20
like that have no place in the core distribution. If you want to run=20
your personal project, go ahead - but keep php.net out of it.

> If you had wanted to co-operate, you could have spoken to me at that=20
> conference in person,

I tried. You disappeared after the first afternoon.

cheers,
Derick

--=20
http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org
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