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To: Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@sugarcrm.com>
Cc: Weinand Bob <bobwei9@hotmail.com>, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>, 
 Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>, PHP Developers Mailing List
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Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2014 21:24:27 +0100
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHPDBG nonsense (Was: Re: [PHP-CVS] com php-src: Made
 phpdbg compatible with new engine: ...)
From: pthreads@pthreads.org (Joe Watkins)

On Sat, 2014-10-25 at 11:20 -0700, Stas Malyshev wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > Just a minor question, Derick. If you care about phpdbg, why are you
> > only dropping any comment about it by the time it got into php-src
> > repo? It’s known that all the development currently (except for
> > master, but that just was a merge and then a pure rewrite on top of
> > that merge, nothing related to the protocol) is going on in
> > krakjoe/phpdbg github repo. There was now an xml-protocol branch for
> > three weeks before it got merged into krakjoe/phpdbg#master. You had
> > vast time to notice it and complain before, if you’d really have
> > cared.
> 
> I would like to weigh in here. If we're talking about things in PHP core
> repo, "we did it somewhere in public repo and nobody complained" is not
> a good stance. People do literally hundreds of things around PHP in
> public places, but not everything is part of PHP core. phpdbg now is.
> That involves not only good parts (by-default acceptance by millions of
> PHP users) but some obligations - like proper discussion and
> notification. Of course, since master is not stable yet, we have
> somewhat relaxed rules there, but even then introducing new debugging
> protocol into PHP core seems to be something that warrants some
> notification. As a person who spent significant time on implementing and
> maintaining one of PHP debugging solutions in the past, I, for example,
> would be interested to take a look into what is being checked into core
> repo in this regard. However, the first note I see about this happening
> is the commit messages. And that takes us back to old and not-so-good
> "check in first, discuss later" times. With project of the size of PHP,
> it having good process matters no less than having good code.

I'd like to everyone to stay grounded in reality and say that we have
been checking code into php-src for months, very very few people have
expressed an interest in what we were actually doing, you aren't one of
them Stas.

There was a remote protocol at the start, it still exists, it was
changed slightly. XML was added as an option.

None of the decisions taken were questionable, in the slightest. While
we should have given internals a heads up, it would have not have
changed the outcome.

We will notify internals of our intentions to make such changes in
future, if we thought there was any chance of any feedback before today,
we would already be doing so.

> 
> So saying "we had this branch for whole three weeks before merging it
> into PHP repo" is not really saying much.
> 
> That said, we are where we are, and I think it would be great if this
> would somehow server as a starting point for developing a unified
> protocol for debugging PHP. There are a number of good tools for
> debugging PHP, and it would be a pity if everybody invented their own
> protocols and required to install half-dozen of extensions to be
> compatible with all tools doing the same in slightly different way.
> We have so many unification efforts with PSR and the spec and so on, I'm
> pretty sure we can make a protocol that would be workable for all,
> debugging PHP is not exactly rocket surgery and there are not that many
> things there that we couldn't find a common ground.

I quite like that idea, however, I'm stretched too thin to say that I
can do anything about it.

Cheers
Joe