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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 14:36:04 -0700
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To: =?UTF-8?Q?Johannes_Schl=C3=BCter?= <johannes@schlueters.de>
Cc: Rafael Kassner <kassner@php.net>, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>, 
	Andrey Andreev <narf@devilix.net>, Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
From: kris.craig@gmail.com (Kris Craig)

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On Sep 22, 2014 8:39 AM, "Johannes Schl=C3=BCter" <johannes@schlueters.de> =
wrote:
>
>
>
> On September 22, 2014 4:21:29 PM CEST, Rafael Kassner <kassner@php.net>
wrote:
> >IMHO, denying non-karma people to vote is like to making PHP a
> >company's
> >product, or, in another words, "you use what we built and shut up",
> >because
> >only listening people won't allow to accept/deny a particular RFC, only
> >votes do. People surely don't comment (myself included) why they are
> >choosing some particular option on a RFC, but they are making their
> >opinion
> >count, and I think this kind of "democracy power" shouldn't be voided.
>
> Slightly provocative:  Why should I be forced to maintain code by people
who
> don't want to maintain it themselves?

Nobody is forcing you to do anything.  You choose to contribute to PHP in
the manner in which you do, just as other people choose to contribute in
different, sometimes less obvious, ways.

Probably even due to votes by people
> about whom I don't know anything? Mind that most maintenance work by
> most contributors happens in free time on a voluntarily base.
>
> And no open source doesn't mean democracy as governing model.

It can.  Every project is governed differently.

Winston Churchill once famously said that democracy is the worst form of
government, except all the others that have been tried.

The
> democratic part is that people who don't like it can fork the project and
> eventually receive a higher traction.

And then we can have dozens of competing PHP codebases floating around.

But no, "one man one vote" and full
> equality doesn't work out. (i.e. if a modules primary maintainer vetos a
> change I have to mind that [which doesn't mean I have to agree in the
> end])
>
> >Using separated voting count isn't an option? Like only internal
> >changes
> >are voted only by people with karma and features/changes/small BC
> >breaks
> >that affects userland are allowed to anyone. This way I believe is easy
> >to
> >say if either internals and community agrees with the proposed change
> >and
> >community people are making their opinion count.
>
> There are no plans (and enough people who'd veto such plans) to close
> the mailing list. Everybody might state their opinion and we are happy to
> receive (constructive) feedback and ideas here. And yes, this can be a bi=
t
> painful due to different forms of "trolling" but leads to better results
respecting
> more opinions than a yes/no vote.

The problem with that model is that history has consistently shown that
those in power may listen, but will ultimately just do what they want,
anyway.

>
> johannes
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>

I feel it's also worth reminding everyone that VCS accounts generally
aren't given away like candy.  Most people who have that access have done
something or another to earn it.

--Kris

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