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Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 11:21:29 -0300
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To: Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>
Cc: Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>, Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me>, 
	Andrey Andreev <narf@devilix.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
From: kassner@php.net (Rafael Kassner)

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IMHO, denying non-karma people to vote is like to making PHP a company's
product, or, in another words, "you use what we built and shut up", because
only listening people won't allow to accept/deny a particular RFC, only
votes do. People surely don't comment (myself included) why they are
choosing some particular option on a RFC, but they are making their opinion
count, and I think this kind of "democracy power" shouldn't be voided.

Using separated voting count isn't an option? Like only internal changes
are voted only by people with karma and features/changes/small BC breaks
that affects userland are allowed to anyone. This way I believe is easy to
say if either internals and community agrees with the proposed change and
community people are making their opinion count.

On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 10:39 AM, Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sep 22, 2014 3:29 PM, "Derick Rethans" <derick@php.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Andrey Andreev wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Perhaps I=E2=80=99m being unfair and overthinking things, but I w=
onder if
> > > >>> it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not
> > > >>> contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src or anythin=
g
> > > >>> else, to have the ability to vote on RFCs?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I=E2=80=99d never suggest people without internals karma can=E2=
=80=99t vote. I
> > > >>> think doc and peck contributors are as valued as any other
> > > >>> contributors. However, people with no karma whatsoever (a blank
> > > >>> people.php.net page) voting irks me.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to the
> > > >> section of the code that the RFC/feature/whatever relates to.
> > > >
> > > > Is that really fair? If we break BC, plenty of userland developers
> > > > might be affected and they should have a right to chime in.
> > >
> > > That would be quite unfair, not just because of BC breaks and/or
> > > userland developers' votes (there aren't many, afaik).
> > > Practically every language change would be decided by only a handful
> > > of people, while it should be important that many votes are gathered
> > > for important decisions.
> >
> > There is a big difference between votes, and voices. Voices should
> > definitely be listened too.
>
> We agree on listening. Only not on how we listen.
>
> > Derick
> >
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