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Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 22:13:30 -0500
Cc: Kalle Sommer Nielsen <kalle@php.net>,
 Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me>,
 PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Message-ID: <FEFEB188-CE0E-4F72-ADCF-E389BCA426B1@darkrainfall.org>
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To: Kris Craig <kris.craig@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on RFCs?
From: gwynne@darkrainfall.org (Gwynne Raskind)

On Sep 19, 2014, at 21:32, Kris Craig <kris.craig@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Kalle Sommer Nielsen <kalle@php.net> =
wrote:
>> 2014-09-20 3:29 GMT+02:00 Andrea Faulds <ajf@ajf.me>:
>>> Hi!
>>>=20
>>> Perhaps I=92m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if =
it is
>> really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to =
the
>> documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the =
ability to
>> vote on RFCs?
>>>=20
>>> I=92d never suggest people without internals karma can=92t vote. I =
think doc
>> and peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. =
However,
>> people with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) voting =
irks
>> me.
>>>=20
>>> Thoughts?
>>=20
>> I'm with you on this one, huge +1 for the separation on who can vote
>> and changing the voting rfc.
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> regards,
>>=20
>> Kalle Sommer Nielsen
>> kalle@php.net
>>=20
>> --
>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
>> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>>=20
>>=20
> The one problem with this is it doesn't take into account those who
> contribute to PHP in other ways, such as administering tests, =
contributing
> RFCs, etc.  I'm not necessarily against this, but if you want to =
garner
> wide enough support, you might want to make the language a little more
> inclusive.
>=20
> Just my two cents.
>=20
> --Kris

I would also argue that contributions are not always a measure of the =
value of a person=92s opinion. I haven=92t made what would be considered =
=93significant=94 contributions to PHP itself in a few years now, but I =
remain a very active user of the language, and I keep an eye on where =
it=92s going.

When I vote on language features, I=92m casting that vote as someone who =
1) has a clear set of reasons in mind for why a feature would or =
wouldn=92t be useful, and 2) is always looking for a reason to be able =
to devote my time again. I agree that voting should be kept out of the =
hands of people who=92ve never made any effort to show they give a darn =
about the language and its future. But I would say, be careful about =
equating =93small" contributions with =93unimportant=94, =
=93uninteresting=94, or =93nonexistent" ones.

As Kris pointed out, the ways in which someone contributes aren=92t =
always obvious. Leigh speaks of people who contribute =93one translation =
a year=94 - that=92s still more than many ever have done or ever will =
do. There are many who simply don=92t have the time to take away from =
their lives to do more, but remain invested in the language and its =
community.

That being said, I am absolutely in favor of excluding people who don=92t =
make at least *some* effort. I=92m strongly +1 for people explaining =
their reasons for a vote, or even doing so much as saying =93I=92d =
prefer not to explain my reasons=94. I=92m even more strongly +1 for =
people having to at least shown some level of interest before being =
allowed to influence PHP=92s future. I would just like to be sure that =
the bar is not set so high that it excludes opinions from people whose =
only failing is not being seen by the community.

Full disclosure: This is absolutely a self-serving opinion. All of my =
significant contributions are years old (dating back to 5.3), I=92ve =
been all but invisible in the internals community since, and I am =
certainly someone who has limited time to spend on contributing to the =
language. But I like to think my thoughts are still worth something. If =
the requirement for that is that I explain why I voted how I did on an =
RFC, I=92m glad - even eager - to do so. If the requirement for that is =
that I contribute at least one nontrivial documentation edit or source =
code commit per month, or something similar, I think the point has been =
missed.

-- Gwynne Raskind