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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: PHP Language Specification
From: ivan.enderlin@hoa-project.net ("Ivan Enderlin @ Hoa")

Hello Sara,

First, thank you for the hard work. I have started to work on it few=20
days ago as suggested in [1]. You have been faster than me ;-). Good job!=



On 23/07/2014 00:22, Sara Golemon wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Sara Golemon <pollita@php.net> wrote:=

>> This document is meant for PHP, and PHP should be the steward of it
>> going forward, so we (as in PHP) should start looking at good ways to
>> keep it up to date and revise it over time.
>>
> Some folks in IRC asked for clarification of this point.
>
> FB isn't looking to just throw this over wall saying "HERE'S THE FINAL
> DOCUMENT, HAVE A NICE DAY, GOOD BYE!".  What we're planning to release
> next week is more like a pre-1.0 draft which will probably need a lot
> of work before anyone is willing to call it final, and of course the
> document will need to be updated over time to reflect changes in the
> language's syntax (e.g. return typehint rfc).
This is a good news. The approach of Facebook is sane as I can see and=20
this is comforting.

You said your target was PHP5.6. With Pierre Joye, when we talked about=20
the PHP Specification, we have mentionned to target PHP6 since (i) it=20
will solve several PHP inconsistencies and (ii) PHP6 requires 2 years to =

be released, just like the PHP Specification (approximately).


> We're happy to setup the framework for curating that document
> (probably as a github project), but don't want to be all controlling
> with it, so if the PHP Group as an organization wants to own it and
> manage updates to it over time, all the better.  If that means FB sets
> it up then hands it over, that's an option too.  This is the
> discussion I'd like to start now, so that we can work out a strategy
> for what that looks like.
My idea was to constitute a **PHP Consortium** (yes, the name is classy=20
but it reflects the reality), responsible to maintain and edit the PHP=20
Specification. With what members? Members from the PHP Group=20
(maintainers of php-src), from Facebook (maintainers of HHVM), from=20
HippyVM, from JPHP etc. and from others important projects (e.g.=20
Symfony, Zend etc.), just like the PHP Group does with the RFC votes.=20
What will be the size of the PHP Consortium? I don't know. Having more=20
than 100 persons, even qualified, would not be a good idea. A process=20
must be sketch to propose, discuss and accept RFC, features etc. The=20
group responsible to validate RFC will be the PHP Consortium. This is=20
not a technical position, but a =E2=80=9Clanguage-semantics=E2=80=9D posi=
tion, in order=20
to avoid conflicts between different vendors (VM mainteners).

I am wondering whether it is possible to adopt an approach similar to=20
the W3C: several people working =E2=80=9Cpunctually=E2=80=9D on a feature=
=2E On one side=20
we have authors, and on the other side, we have =E2=80=9Ccommenters=E2=80=
=9D. The=20
workflow is pretty efficient also:
   * writing a proposal,
   * discussing,
   * trying different implementations,
   * collecting feedbacks from the users, and finally,
   * validating it.
We should not met the issues encountered by the W3C and HTML vendors=20
because the rate of releases is not the same (fortunately!). Another=20
source of inspiration can be the process of the ECMAScript language.



> If folks have comments on the one chapter I uploaded, I'd say start
> with emails to the list or me directly and I'll pass them on.
Please, send me the first chapter :-). I have written specifications for =

two languages, my skills can be interesting (this is why I have started=20
[1]).


> That
> should be considered a short-term solution though.  Ideally we'll have
> something in a collaborative format next week that folks with existing
> karma can contribute to more directly.
Several people have proposed Github, markdown etc. From my point of view =

and experience, this will be insane to manage. If everyone can make a=20
proposal, this will lead to a lot of noise. PHP allows *some* users to=20
write RFC. If someone would like to see a new feature, it has to=20
approach someone with a higher karma/rights or to join the ML=20
(mailing-list) of the PHP Consortium. Also, about the format, we should=20
use an advanced one (so it excludes markdown, sorry guys :-)).


Finally, a lot of questions remain open, like:
   * What version numbers for the specification? Will they follow the=20
versions of php-src (the =E2=80=9Chistorical implementation=E2=80=9D, hah=
a</trolling>)
   * Will the PHP Consortium be splitted into several groups according=20
to the specification's chapters (for example: the stream part, the=20
runtime part, the security part etc.)
   * Will a test suite to check the conformance of an implementation to=20
the PHP Specification be provided?
   * What are the goals of the PHP Specification? I mean: What are the=20
subjects? Will it include the extensions, or the definition of extensions=
?

Maybe I have missed this information but why Facebook is keeping the=20
sources of the PHP Specification private for now? I'm not judging, just=20
asking :-).

Again, really great work. Thank you!
Best regards.



[1] http://marc.info/?l=3Dphp-internals&m=3D139565259319206

--=20
Ivan Enderlin
Developer of Hoa
http://hoa-project.net/

PhD at DISC/Femto-ST (Vesontio) and INRIA (Cassis)
http://disc.univ-fcomte.fr/ and http://www.inria.fr/

Member of HTML and WebApps Working Group of W3C
http://w3.org/