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Date: Thu, 29 May 2014 10:29:09 +0200
Message-ID: <CAEZPtU58xOpD_rNmAC887=x8kE8wE-9TyVzUH85G=uaa66j=KQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Joe Watkins <pthreads@pthreads.org>
Cc: Levi Morrison <levim@php.net>, Kris Craig <kris.craig@gmail.com>, Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com>, 
	Ferenc Kovacs <tyra3l@gmail.com>, =?UTF-8?Q?Johannes_Schl=C3=BCter?= <johannes@schlueters.de>, 
	Michael Wallner <mike@php.net>, Andi Gutmans <andi@zend.com>, PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>, 
	php-webmaster <php-webmaster@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Subject: Re: [PHP-WEBMASTER] Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-WEBMASTER] Re: [PHP-DEV]
 about the latest frontpage entry
From: pierre.php@gmail.com (Pierre Joye)

Hi Joe,

On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Joe Watkins <pthreads@pthreads.org> wrote:
> I don't see those quoted numbers here, *at all*.
>
> Zeev, it's cowardly to say "I don't know who it was" or "it doesn't matter
> who it was", you can read my name on the commit, and know full well who it
> was, if you have something to say, say it.
>
> Andi, It's not fair to call me unprofessional for bothering to act.

The action was unprofessional.

> It makes no sense to say that because we have never done something, we
> should never do it, this is complete and utter nonsense.

Right, we have to move forward and a place where the project members
can post their view is a good idea. That's part of the goals of
planet-php.

However the frontpage of php.net does not represent individual
opinions and should never do. It shows critical or important
information, in an official manner. It is read by millions of users
and directly affect our image. It is rather easy to understand the
difference between a blog and the frontpage of a project used by
millions of users.


> I was not, I repeat, **NOT**, writing a news entry; I had an idea to start
> a blog and was **TOLD** to use the index by **SOMEONE RELEVANT** to phpweb.

While having a little idea about this relevant person, I do not think
anyone contributing codes can suddenly decide alone that www.php.net/
can become a blog for the php.net members. Neither can he suddenly
decide alone what our web presence should be. This is not how it
should work, sorry.

> The material was reviewed by relevant individuals, 2 of the 3 who wrote
> phpng included, it was not factually incorrect, nor was it opinionated. It
> started with a joke and ended optimistically, because once again I was NOT
> writing a news entry, but starting a blog, or so I thought.

It is important to keep in mind that the problem here was not the
content but the whole idea of having phpng announced officially (yes,
having it on the frontpage makes it official) was not good, the
timing, the way it was done and the form used were inappropriate.

The news, blogs, HN and other sources of information, bad or good, are
made of various kind of content, sometimes very positive, and too
often very negative. We do not have to reply to every single news out
there. However we do post critical information when necessary. Or we
try to.

> The conversation was started, and conducted extremely poorly by Tyrael at
> times yesterday, he made statements that weren't true because he couldn't
> be bothered to look at what really happened, this set the tone, told
> everyone I done it on my own, tricked some people into reviewing the
> content, none of this happened, obviously it didn't.

Count me with Tyrael as well, and I blame me to do not have removed it
as soon as I have seen it.

> The shambolic reaction that the world saw yesterday completely turned me
> off from the idea, the idea that Zeev can reverse whatever commits anyone
> makes it sickening

Excuse me Joe, but can you see anyone in this thread except one,
saying that this post was a good idea? I can't. Zeev acted in the way
I should have acted 12hours before.

As a matter of fact we have a communication problem, it is no secret.
And some people here keeps work like 12 years go, even me. This is the
problem. I do not have a magical solution but we have to fix that. We
have to avoid these kind of troubles. Not only because it costs us a
huge amount of energy for nothing, but also because it is discouraging
(like in your case here or in your past RFC). But it is also
discredits the php.net project, and seriously, we are already in a
very bad shape from an image point of view. Events like this one just
make things worst.


>, and completely discourages me from even bothering to
> try again, the idea that we must gather a consensus on facts before
> communicating them is dysfunctional,

Please explain me why it is dysfunctional to get peers reviews before
posting something on www.php.net, which represents the official view
of the PHP project. I totally fail to understand you here.

> and it was completely pointless to
> remove indexed content from the front page other than to flex your "I'm
> going to get my own way" muscles; it was already being read, all you really
> done there is piss me off, and make everyone look foolish, but especially
> me.

We are all fool and fooled here. We are seen as clowns, more and more
every time such things happens, and I am getting sick of that. You, as
an individual person, are not guilty of having done that. Maybe
misguided but that's all about it. How this happened is only another
sign that something is deeply broken in how we work together. We must
fix that.

> Those people I respect understand what I was doing and why, and are still
> supportive of the idea to have a developer blog it's just a shame that we
> seem to have a community that is incompatible, completely incompatible.

I respect everyone here. However I cannot accept, tolerate or even
remotely agree on unilateral decisions, no matter the area. It is
critical to separate the individual from their opinions. I disagree
more than often with Zeev, Derick for example, but I totally respect
them as individuals, even if I can disagree with their way of doing
things. The world is not black and white, php.net is not different. It
is important to keep a safe distance between opinions, emotions and
the facts. Easy to say (oh gosh, I have hard time to do follow this
rule too).

Long story short, we are at a critical point in the php history. Yet
again we are about to begin the next major PHP version. If we do not
have to fail, and that could be our last chance, we have to put our
ego, emotions, personal goals on the side and begin to work more, much
more, together. We have to communicate (and internals is the only
place where you reach anyone), more, better, more respectfully and
early, as early as possible for every possible idea. Communication is
not about politics, communication about getting more people involved,
early and try to get everyone on the same board and in sync.

Cheers,
-- 
Pierre

@pierrejoye | http://www.libgd.org