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Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2014 11:51:53 -0800
Message-ID: <CAESVnVpgRwgbgqHQGZJfCPYBcxh+QUX20+UoB78sk=9DUqgFuA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Philip Sturgeon <email@philsturgeon.co.uk>
Cc: Philip Sturgeon <pjsturgeon@gmail.com>, Robert Stoll <php@tutteli.ch>, 
	Joe Watkins <pthreads@pthreads.org>, "internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Introducing "Array Of" RFC
From: pollita@php.net (Sara Golemon)

> Why should this RFC get put on hold forever because people cannot come
> to an agreement about scalar type hints? Why would it be better,
> quicker, or easier this time? :)
>
It shouldn't, by any measure.  I'm just saying that ignoring scalars
doesn't buy us anything in understanding how typed array hints are
useful.  The topic is argument type hinting, scalars are a component
of that, even if not an essential component of this RFC.

>> ArrayOf is not a separate topic from Generics, it is by definition a
>> narrowly-scoped form of generics.  "ArrayOf Foo" is a "Foo"
>> specialization of the array generic (even if it's not labeled as such
>> due to not having other types of generics).  "This is an array, but
>> it's an array just for Foos".  Can arrayof be implemented in a way
>> which hides this heritage? Sure, but should it?
>
> I respectfully but strongly disagree.
>
> This feature: "I would like a bag of spanners"
>
> Generics: "I would like a **polyester** bag full of spanners, and this
> is how you should put those spanners into that bag."
>
I respectfully by strongly disagree.

ArrayOf: "I would like hammers in a bag."
Generics: "I would like a bag of hammers."


> Pros
> -----
>
> You can be very certain what you are putting in there
> It's a little quicker than checking an array of content
>
> Cons
> -----
>
> Definitely "forcing OOP on people"
> Require the user to do stuff outside of the method declaration that
> they dont care about
> It's a whole new topic, instead of a simple improvement.
>
These arguments apply to broadly-scoped Generics, but not to the
specifics of presenting arrays as a generics specialization.

It does not enforce OOP on anyone.  It does not require anyone to do
anything outside of the method declaration.  I'm sorry, but those
arguments are simply untrue.

> I know you'd like to see generics in PHP, and while I personally don't
> care too much about them you have support from Joe and others. It
> would be great of generics could be done, but this is not generics.
> This is "I want an array of Foo", which soon will be "I want an array
> of integers". I hope to god we don't suggest that people create a
> generic to ask for an array of co-odinates.
>
I agree, and I'm not asking for Generics.  Honestly, I'm not even too
bothered whether we see generics or not, so don't tell me what my
opinions are.  I'm including a discussion of generics in my comments
on ArrayOf because of their clear overlap.  I'm sorry you can't see
that.

>> Ignoring elements which fit closely together is a short-sighted mistake.
>>
> And trying to bundle things in together which seem to vaguely overlap
> is a very quick way to get stuck in the mud. :)
>
Yes, but that has nothing to do with the topic at hand since they fit
so well together.  I can't imagine why you included such a
nonsequiter...

-Sara