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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 21:05:59 -0400
Message-ID: <CAFp73XsP0YoeYBQDw4kxADm9fukV1i+vQ-Pmy5Ok=EAJipkZ5A@mail.gmail.com>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Johannes_Schl=C3=BCter?= <johannes@schlueters.de>
Cc: Florin Patan <florinpatan@gmail.com>, PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
From: guilhermeblanco@gmail.com ("guilhermeblanco@gmail.com")

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Hi Johannes,

I do understand motivations behind keeping core simple and stable that
majority of internals always promote. I also understand the majority of
user base is on shared host.
But as a counterpart, what about large agencies that do want to extract
every single feature PHP has to provide?
That's the part it sounds blurry. Which side should PHP take? Trying to
keep both sides happy is becoming more and more
difficult along the years.

Who would make this decision? What is gonna happen with the other side?
Someone needs to address this.
Why don't we reevaluate all highlighted topics provided on that
StackOverflow thread (use my comment as base) as it was done in that 2005
Paris meeting? That should be a great start for ZE3.

From the personal side, I truly agree with this thread. I tried 5 times to
contribute to internals, all of them generated endless flames, and even
RFCs where over 50% was pro the support, I got an answer like "most core
devs were against it, so no". I'm pretty much on Anthony's side.


Thanks,


On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Johannes Schl=C3=BCter
<johannes@schlueters.de>wrote:

> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 23:34 +0200, Florin Patan wrote:
> > First, I didn't said anything about attitude to new comers. For me it
> > was quite well and people offered to help out in solving issues.
>
> Thanks.
>
> > Second, if you read the posting rules of this mailing list, top
> > posting is one of those things that you should avoid.
> >
> > Given the following factors:
> > - lack of clear language scope: yes we build webpages but guess what,
> > we aren't doing blogs for a long time ago. if you dimiss Wikipedia,
> > Facebook and some other sily sites in the top 100 hits / month that
> > use PHP you are given a whole slew of startups and some of them even
> > businesses which are using PHP. Some of them might even prefer to have
> > in-house developed tools but then for those tools PHP says: sorry, you
> > should check another language if you want this or that. It's simply
> > frustrating :)
>
> Facebook is not using PHP but HipHop. Weblogs and small sites are still
> a big part of the user base (shared hosters still seem to see enough
> market to battle in that market, I know different "web agencies" serving
> those).
>
> > - lack of a clear roadmap: as I said earlier, can someone really tell
> > what's in the next two versions of php from now
>
> ... and never will. I commented on that in a different mail.
>
> > - lack of clear authority - who can and should steer discussions to a
> > desired path and stop trolling (even by core devs)
>
> A troll has no respect on authority. The community at large has to
> handle that.
>
> > - lack of actual feedback from the community on topics/rfcs: there's
> > always a 'but people need/want/don't need/don't want' with no concrete
> > way to really gauge what the community position really is
>
>         =E2=80=9CNobody knows what most PHP programmers do.=E2=80=9D
>         - Bjarne Stroustrup (inventor of C++, parapharsed)
>
> There is no single community, there are wikipedia and yahoo and such
> (which itself aren't homogeneous entities), there are wordpress users,
> there are small special interest forums, there people just learning
> programming, using it on intranet sites, ...
>
> This actually is the cause for the discussions here - everybody here
> lives in a different world, facing different challenges.
>
> > - lack of clear documentation about the internals: you really can't
> > tell me that the docs out there are clear because I did a bunch of
> > searching for them and I'm pretty good at finding stuff
>
> What specifically do you need? I often hear this abstract comment. Often
> these either are very specialized questions or lack of C knowledge or
> such.
>
> > - personal feelings on a subject instead or rational ones
>
> Depending on what kind of challenges you are coming from you rank
> requirements differently. This impacts"rationalism". If you want a jack
> of all trades language you rank additions differently from when you are
> aiming for a beginner-friendly language, which you value differently
> from when you put BC first, ...
>
> That said: Not all arguments are good, but often a disagreement here
> comes from different views colliding, which, to some degree, is healthy
> in order to find the right path working for as many users as possible.
>
> joahnnes
>
>
>
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>
>


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Guilherme Blanco
MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com
GTalk: guilhermeblanco
Toronto - ON/Canada

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