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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 23:34:51 +0200
Message-ID: <CAA9esyRmVcnF0x+NzHuq-WbWPxXNxTXiereuNmRMxKhBvrgLZw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Madara Uchiha <dor.tchizik@gmail.com>
Cc: Ulf Wendel <ulf.wendel@oracle.com>, PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
From: florinpatan@gmail.com (Florin Patan)

>On Wed, Sep 11, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Madara Uchiha <dor.tchizik@gmail.com> wrote:
> A forum is merely a medium, and even if the community would be able to
> moderate message, I still foresee a problem.
>
> As long as the community remains hostile to newcomers, moderation
> would be hostile as well. Take for example the situation on Stack
> Overflow's PHP tag. Hardened by a tidal wave of crap content, PHP high
> rep users (a.k.a. "The Moderators"), aggressively close and delete bad
> content, often without giving OP indication of his wrongdoing,
> sometimes via automated comments.
>
> It's not their (ours, I'm part of it) fault, that's a natural process
> that happens when too much low content material arrives at a
> moderator's doorstep.
>
> However, the problem in my eyes remains the lack of proper leadership
> and vision. Even open source projects need a team head and/or a
> leader, you know. Even mailing lists needs to have an *active*
> moderator, that's capable of making the cool, hard decisions without
> pushing his own agendas. As long as internals don't have any of those
> (You may say you have them, I don't see it in practice, sorry. A
> moderator and a leader needs to show presence and authority).
>
> I'm mostly a lurker, reading around whenever possible, rarely
> answering. However, you're really off-track here with trying to come
> up with technical solutions such as a new medium for internals, or
> some sort of system. The community itself needs to change. If it
> doesn't do that, nothing will ever change, regardless of how you
> change your color scheme.

First, I didn't said anything about attitude to new comers. For me it
was quite well and people offered to help out in solving issues.

Second, if you read the posting rules of this mailing list, top
posting is one of those things that you should avoid.

Given the following factors:
- lack of clear language scope: yes we build webpages but guess what,
we aren't doing blogs for a long time ago. if you dimiss Wikipedia,
Facebook and some other sily sites in the top 100 hits / month that
use PHP you are given a whole slew of startups and some of them even
businesses which are using PHP. Some of them might even prefer to have
in-house developed tools but then for those tools PHP says: sorry, you
should check another language if you want this or that. It's simply
frustrating :)
- lack of a clear roadmap: as I said earlier, can someone really tell
what's in the next two versions of php from now
- lack of clear authority - who can and should steer discussions to a
desired path and stop trolling (even by core devs)
- lack of actual feedback from the community on topics/rfcs: there's
always a 'but people need/want/don't need/don't want' with no concrete
way to really gauge what the community position really is
- lack of clear documentation about the internals: you really can't
tell me that the docs out there are clear because I did a bunch of
searching for them and I'm pretty good at finding stuff
- personal feelings on a subject instead or rational ones

Conclusion, it's the process that has issues and people are drove off
sooner or later by it and that's what we should prevent and improve.



@Jordi
Internals mailing lists rules say to break silence when you have
something to say and that's what I've did. Like it or not this is the
truth and if everyone knows it and nobody says it / does something to
change things, even if it's just starting a discussion as useless as
this, then maybe the community members shouldn't be part of the
decision process of that community.


Kind regards
----
Florin Patan
https://github.com/dlsniper
http://www.linkedin.com/in/florinpatan