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Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2013 16:26:10 +0300
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Wake up
From: arvids.godjuks@gmail.com (Arvids Godjuks)

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2013/9/11 Johannes Schl=C3=BCter <johannes@schlueters.de>

> On Wed, 2013-09-11 at 13:59 +0300, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> > It is based on the fact that there are too many people writing to
> internals
> > and mailing lists are not actually manageable at this level. I stopped
> > following all the stuff around a year ago, when I started to get like 1=
5
> to
> > 30 maillist threads in my inbox daily (hundreds of mails) and too much
> > noise.
>
> Get a better mail client and better mail filters.
>

Gmail, the best there is on the WEB. I have a lots of filters and labels
setup. Even in this case following the internals is possible if you do it
like full time. Sure, there are quite days, but seriously - when it hits
the fan - it's a mess.


>
> > So, I think, it's time to move to a forum.
>
> I hope this is a joke.
>

Why? At least you can just delete (or mark deleted with the ability to view
if needed)  the off topic stuff, move relevant discussions to other threads=
.
Mailing list will stay in place, it will just get cleaner and be used for,
as it states in the name, for internal stuff. Not discussing stuff that
does not belong in here.


>
> >  Actual forum, that can be
> > managed, can have sections dedicated to certain stuff and has user
>
> We have multiple lists for different things.
>

I know, been here for a long time. See above.


>
> > management that allows to mute or actually ban people who are not able =
to
> > behave, troll and do other kind's of stupid stuff that disrupts the wor=
k.
>
> We can ban people and have done that twice or so. PHP is open. If people
> annoy you, you can filter them out.
>

If I would do that, I'll probably filter out like 70% to 90% of the mails
coming from this list: in the long history of this mailing list I think
it's hard to find someone, who has not gone off topic or posted an
occasional annoying e-mail. Even me - that time I was ashamed and if that
was a forum - I'd just delete (or ask to delete) that senseless stupid
message.


>
> > Many devs are already just ignoring this mailing list, so what is the
> point
> > of having it if relevant people just don't read it?
>
> People read what they consider interesting and ignore other threads, and
> I assume this here will end in many ignores.
>

I care for named params, type hinting and some other stuff. I just dropped
following it when there were like 3 threads going on at the same time,
messages were pouring like crazy and the amount of text just got so
ridiculously big, that I just didn't had the time, ability and will to read
it all. I'd say that that threadnaught, if made on a forum, could be edited
and shrinked like 7 or 8 times for people actually to read something
constructive instead of that monster.


>
> > The list should remain of course, just to be used as a notification too=
l
> > for new important forum threads, RFC's, daily/weekly digest so that tho=
se
> > who have less time can still follow all the stuff in a compact manner.
>
> While loosing the structuring proper mail programs offer and having
> media breaks - switching between forums and mail.
>
> Just a simple examples what mail can do: I can write a mail to the list
> an CC the relevant maintainer to draw his attention and he can directly
> answer from there. Or I can xpost to bring a discussion from the "CVS"
> list, about some "bad" commit to internals. Mail is open, forums are
> locking in.
>
> I haven't seen any useful forum. If Google/Bing/duckduck send me to a
> forum it's always a pain to follow those completely unstructured
> discussions (mail has In-Reply-to headers allowing a proper client to
> sort/nest accordingly etc.)
>
>
Again, replacing the mailing list is not an option - it definitely has it's
uses. Also, it's a matter of integrating things and what people with
different rights are able to do.
What I'm saying here is that forum can, and if rules are enforced, will
decrease the mailing list noise a lot and push those senseless holy wars of
the mailing list. All the important stuff will still be here. Don't want to
read the forum - be my guest. Anything significant will be pushed into
internals anyway. All the raging and off topic will be left out on the
forum without disturbing your peace.
Forum also has the functionality to follow certain posts - meaning you will
get notifications, if you want to, about the stuff you want to follow.

I know, these are some big changes, need to get used to. But seriously, do
you really believe that going through hundreds of mails just to see what
points have been brought up is easy? People are loosing the context after
10-15 lengthy e-mails, just jump in without reading all the stuff (because
it's just back and forth most of the time with minor, sometimes important,
changes).


P.S. While I was writing this, 4 people posted. Only Patrick Schaaf posted
usefull information. If this would be a forum - those 3 posts should be
marked as off topic and hidden by default.

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