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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 17:29:02 +0200
Message-ID: <3487da3f1d2d6eca643189629a19283e@mail.gmail.com>
To: Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>
Cc: Ferenc Kovacs <tyra3l@gmail.com>, Rasmus Lerdorf <rasmus@lerdorf.com>, 
	PHP Developers Mailing List <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Integrating Zend Optimizer+ into the PHP distribution
From: zeev@zend.com (Zeev Suraski)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pierre Joye [mailto:pierre.php@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:12 PM
> To: Zeev Suraski
> Cc: Ferenc Kovacs; Rasmus Lerdorf; PHP Developers Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [VOTE] Integrating Zend Optimizer+ into the PHP
> distribution
>
> hi Zeev,
>
> On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Most users don't upgrade because they don't need the new features and
> > can't be bothered to upgrade.
> >
> > There's no such thing as 100% downwards compatibility, and 5.5 will be
> > no different in that sense from previous versions.  Perhaps it'll be
> > three nines instead of two nines (99.9% vs. 99%), but every keyword,
> > every bug fix, every change in an error reporting level - can break
> > apps and make an upgrade process non smooth.  We're not going to be
> > able to change people's perception.
>
> nitpicking. You know what I mean.

Of course I do, but I would say that saying 5.4 is 'extremely incompatible
with 5.3' is also nitpicking.  Which is why I doubt 5.5 will see
dramatically different adoption rates from 5.4.  If anything, having O+
inside 5.5 would help - although personally I think that the reason people
aren't upgrading to 5.4 isn't just the fact APC wasn't available.  It's
simply not a priority for them as earlier versions are already doing
everything they need, and if it ain't broke - don't fix it.


> I have to suggest to join me in the next conferences then. Like the one
I gave
> talks about this topic (DrupalCons, general PHP conferences, dozen of
UGs,
> companies conferences, etc.). And the attendees are not the usual
suspects you
> could find at some major US conferences.

The conferences you cite are very, very developer centric.  As weird as it
may sound - developers typically don't get to choose what version of PHP
they run on, beyond perhaps the initial setup.  Operations people do.  And
they won't install PHP 5.5 because Pierre tells them it's 100% compatible.
They'd need to (a) have a good reason to upgrade (b) have it prioritized
high enough over all the other things they need to do (c) have apps fully
tested before they roll a version out.  I, for one, wouldn't dream of
rolling out PHP 5.5 without fully testing that nothing broke, and I'm not
exactly a very conservative ops person.

> I suppose you refer to my comments about us being out of sync with our
user
> bases, let say you talk to part of our users and I do to another.

I refer to your lack of respect for pluralism, the fact that other people
may have a different opinion, and that possibility that you may simply not
be right.  Just in case it wasn't clear - I very much admit the
possibility that I may be wrong, and that the yearly cycle is a good
thing.  Everything I know about how PHP is actually being used in
production tells me otherwise, but you're not going to hear something
along the lines of "it's not my opinion but a simple fact", even if though
I very strongly believe in what I say.

> Amazingly most of the frameworks and apps lead developers think the same
> have the same opinion, go figure.

If 5.3 was any indication, then the leaders of the two biggest frameworks
barely made the decision to switch to PHP 5.3 almost a full year after it
came out, and that's just as they were gearing up to *start* developing.
Drupal 8, that just came out - doesn't take advantage of PHP 5.4 features,
and only discontinued support for PHP 5.2.  WP still supports 5.2, and
therefore doesn't even take advantage of PHP 5.3 features.  The list goes
on.

Could it be that you're just a tad bit too self-confident with the yearly
release cycle?  I know you'd say 'no', the question is directed to others
reading this message.

Zeev