Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:65976
Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
Received-SPF: error (pb1.pair.com: domain inviqa.com from 74.125.82.51 cause and error)
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-8-736631605
In-Reply-To: <CAPwsocEjX6qfCv5XnvjW+EmhZbLe4+0cyge3yqvhx+a9-yDELw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 17:45:20 +0000
Cc: Levi Morrison <morrison.levi@gmail.com>,
 PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Message-ID: <08CF292F-2A2E-4C2F-8CB8-6A4B1A91D0F4@inviqa.com>
References: <CAESVnVo1z2RA=87GjJa9onW-i91wW_fQ=unED=bDK=LmrKwJ=g@mail.gmail.com> <CADq_CxqBXzcippi6RynuZDH0b5Fjgc5WN9i6+46KZPPSpV-JRQ@mail.gmail.com> <8490FC41-2696-4948-83A1-3931674183B0@gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.02.1302191317590.5054@whisky.home.derickrethans.nl> <3EBB0AF2-A114-4652-806B-C50DD8F9557D@inviqa.com> <CAPwsocECUoCp_joTsazyDK61tabPZ=yx+ffiYbigtyS3FH9zZQ@mail.gmail.com> <E4AB2F37-1F80-4E9A-BA1F-70C17F4B9F96@inviqa.com> <CAPwsocEjX6qfCv5XnvjW+EmhZbLe4+0cyge3yqvhx+a9-yDELw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Leigh <leight@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] Short syntax for anonymous functions
From: mduarte@inviqa.com (Marcello Duarte)

--Apple-Mail-8-736631605
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=us-ascii

On 19 Feb 2013, at 17:32, Leigh wrote:

>=20
> On 19 February 2013 16:46, Marcello Duarte <mduarte@inviqa.com> wrote:
> I find that more and more my developers have to learn ruby just to be =
able to work in our projects. We are one of the largest PHP shops in =
Europe and even the proprietary tools we are writing for DevOps stuff we =
are writing in Ruby. This small syntax arrangement would make it =
possible to write DSLs in PHP. The result is that I can have my PHP =
developers focusing on one language only and get the job done. The =
problem of the web is a bit more complex now, if you look on all you =
need to develop and deploy a large PHP application.
>=20
> That is one of the choices you made for your projects. You looked at =
what was available, and decided that Ruby was the best choice for the =
task at hand.
>=20
> While I agree it's unfortunate that your developers to have to waste =
their time learning Ruby, when they could be doing more productive =
things, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to try and retrofit some evil =
syntax into PHP "just for you", no matter how large an organisation you =
are.

I am curious: "evil syntax"? I am not attached to the syntax I have =
described. I am open to discuss the syntax. It would be good with using =
the callable as last argument converted into a block for DSLs. I don't =
think this is evil, but I don't want to fall into a personal taste =
debate. I want something I can use.

And "just for you" is also inaccurate. You will find that the =
technologies I've been referring to are becoming the tools you will use =
for DevOps, etc... tasks. Do you guys listen to people outside of =
internals? It would be good to have a feedback mechanism that actually =
involve PHP developers in real world projects. I take that if you are =
coding with other languages like C, all the time, that you may loose =
contact with the way things are done.

> By the way, PHP is open source, feel free to make the parser do =
whatever you want.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 19 February 2013 16:40, Levi Morrison <morrison.levi@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> > Say we agree on the syntax above
> >> ($n) |$m| =3D> $m * $n;
> > What happens when my one liner function needs to do one more =
operation
> > like checking the value of $n before multiplication?
>=20
> As I stated before suggesting the syntax: It's only meant for a single
> expression. It's purposefully NOT intended to cover multiple
> expressions.  In that case the current (verbose) syntax is better for
> all criteria I care about. Additionally, neither Python nor Dart
> allows multiple expressions in their short-syntax functions.
>=20
> I prefer this. In this case (imho), a simplified syntax *should* go =
hand in hand with simplified functionality. If PHP is to adopt such a =
syntax I'd much prefer it takes the single expression approach. This =
does achieve the goals of easy readability and maintenance because you =
know the expression is bound by certain limitations.
>=20

--
Marcello Duarte=20
Head of Training

Inviqa
enterprise open source

e-mail: marcello@inviqa.com
mobile: +44 78 3316 8193

phone: +44 20 3179 9555
twitter: @_md @Inviqa
inviqa.com

Disclaimer
This email and any attachments may be confidential and are intended =
solely for the use of the addressee. Any views or opinions expressed are =
those of the author and may not represent those of Inviqa. If you are =
not the intended recipient of this email, you must neither take any =
action based upon its contents, nor copy or show it to anyone. Please =
contact the sender if you believe you have received this email in error.


--Apple-Mail-8-736631605--