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Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2013 14:26:59 -0500
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To: Anthony Ferrara <ircmaxell@gmail.com>
Cc: Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@sugarcrm.com>, 
	"internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Was Reflection annotations reader - We Need A Vision
From: adamjonr@gmail.com (Adam Jon Richardson)

On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Anthony Ferrara <ircmaxell@gmail.com> wrote:
> Stas,
>
> On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@sugarcrm.com>wrote:
>
>> I seriously hope it never comes to this in PHP
>
>
> Would you shut up with this rhetoric already? All it does is show that
> you're completely and utterly out of touch with the reality of modern
> development.

Anthony, I have a lot of respect for your expertise as a programmer (I
follow your blog, and I've appreciated your work on the password
hashing capabilities.) While I like your initiative, Stas was
providing feedback on a proposal, and your opening was directed at
him, personally. I doubt Stas is "out of touch with the reality of
modern development." What it does potentially speak to is the
difference in visions you both have for PHP.

> If you have solid feedback to provide, then provide it. But saying "We're
> supposed to be simple language for doing cool stuff on the web" shows you
> have no idea what people have been doing (or don't want to acknowledge)
> with the language for the past 5 years.

It seems like Stas responds to many, many emails every day. He was
even the ONE who provided commentary on my most recent idea (this
shows his diligence.) Quoting him on one quick excerpt he typed among
many to provide evidence that he has no idea what people have been
doing again seems unfair, as I see Stas devote much time to providing
feedback on internals threads.

Last, I would suggest that even feedback as simple as "I don't want
this in PHP" does have a place. Nothing comes for free. Every bit of
additional functionality has the potential to slow PHP, both in terms
of development, maintenance, and runtime. Declaring your belief that
some pieces of functionality are better integrated as extensions is
important feedback in terms of setting boundaries on the core
capabilities of PHP. The Lua mailing list frequently has this
sentiment expressed (as do many other mailing lists), and it doesn't
mean that its core developers are out of touch. It just means you have
to be working to set the boundaries somewhere.

This all said, creating a vision statement for PHP seems like a nice
idea to help guide the process. Perhaps that work would help guide
where the boundaries for core should be considered.

Again, thanks for the nice work on the password hashing API :)

Adam