Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:64313
Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain gmail.com designates 209.85.217.170 as permitted sender)
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <813193D8-4278-4C52-A5E6-9E26300D4DBC@strojny.net>
References: <EAA1F7DF-374E-4AB4-9ACD-F2C0CC3AE821@strojny.net>
	<CAKOpQSwOBQdUDgww0fvnWsVvk5cUcfzx7yhM-J2WB67tVVaT7g@mail.gmail.com>
	<813193D8-4278-4C52-A5E6-9E26300D4DBC@strojny.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2012 14:16:17 -0800
Message-ID: <CAKOpQSwc47kWryUQc5yvpMAmNr8-MZDpWO1wCBtGEMjbeLOWtw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Lars Strojny <lars@strojny.net>
Cc: PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442724811f63904d0ff9d8b
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Core liason for PHP FIG
From: kris.craig@gmail.com (Kris Craig)

--f46d0442724811f63904d0ff9d8b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Lars,

Thanks for your detailed response.  My thoughts inline below....

--Kris


On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 3:42 AM, Lars Strojny <lars@strojny.net> wrote:

> Hi Kris,
>
> thanks for your response. Just a short note: I'm not in any ways
> officially related to PHP FIG, except that I find it personally to be a
> good initiative. Rest of the answers below.
>
> Am 16.12.2012 um 11:50 schrieb Kris Craig <kris.craig@gmail.com>:
>
> > My one concern with this idea is that it could give the erroneous
> impression that the coding style standards your group advocates are
> endorsed, implicitly or otherwise, by the PHP Group.  There is no
> "official" standard when it comes to spaces vs. tabs and whether to place
> brackets on the same line, for example.  Given how many different competi=
ng
> standards there are out there, I fear that we could run the risk of showi=
ng
> favoritism by "legitimizing" one standards group but not others.
>
> I see what you mean. On the other hand though, a majority of important PH=
P
> projects are organized there. We (as core developers) can=92t ignore what
> these projects are discussing and I don't think we should. And if we have=
 a
> saying in that, why shouldn=92t we endorse such an initiative.
>

Here's the problem:  Who decides what constitutes an "important" PHP
project?  And as for the minority of "important" projects, do we then say
to them that the standards they've chosen to adopt are invalid now?  I fear
that that's the message we'd be sending, perhaps unintentionally, if
php.netin any way officially endorsed this group.  I like the idea of
consistency,
but I believe php.net should remain neutral when it comes to userland PHP
coding style.


>
> > Personally, and I'm just speaking for myself here, I think you guys
> over-reached with your PSR-2 style guidelines.  I totally agree with your
> goal of aiding consistency, but these standards are inherently arbitrary
> and it makes me very uneasy to see anyone proclaim that such-and-such is
> the "correct" style of doing something in PHP.  The only solution I can s=
ee
> is to create several different style rulesets to reflect all the notewort=
hy
> styles in popular use.  Of course, then you run the risk of undermining t=
he
> whole consistency goal.
>
> I, again, can=92t speak for PHP FIG, but it seems to me like the survey
> technique worked out pretty well. So PSR-1 and PSR-2 are what most projec=
ts
> are doing anyway.
>

Most "important" projects, that is.  But even if we accept that standard,
completely ignoring less common but still prevelant standards is a
deal-breaker for me.  If FIG wants to become the "accepted" standards
authority, then they will have to represent *everyone*, not just the
majority or those whom they deem to be "important."



> > I wouldn't be adverse to us linking to your project, so long as we do
> the same for any others that crop-up and we make it clear that these
> third-party standards are not officially endorsed by the PHP Group.  I al=
so
> think it's cool if anyone here wants to join your project and contribute,
> so long as that person is representing him/her self.
>
> See point above. We can=92t ignore what major players in the ecosystem do
> and I don't think we should. I would much rather see PHP core have a sayi=
ng
> in their decisions than standing by the lines and letting things happen
> (which might even be counter-productive for core).
>

Since FIG is not a universally accepted authority, I see no point in us
getting involved.  If later on it incorporates other standards and gains
prevailing legitimacy throughout the userland community, then I might be
more open to the idea.

--f46d0442724811f63904d0ff9d8b--