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Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:40:41 -0400
Message-ID: <CAArmra1hBZH+SyGf8Z9deYRpZyDwfz1rfh=P5bQdhcLhheE-MQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mark <markg85@gmail.com>
Cc: Lester Caine <lester@lsces.co.uk>, "internals@lists.php.net" <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b41bf325d54ba04c9201b71
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Why are the PHP namespaces different compared to C++?
From: wfitch@meetme.com (Will Fitch)

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On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Mark <markg85@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Lester Caine <lester@lsces.co.uk> wrote:
> > Stas Malyshev wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >>> I wasn't assuming. I was outright making a factual statement. I never
> >>> made any implications of the intellectual levels of those implementing
> >>> the spec. I understand the RFC full well and know why the design is
> >>> the way it is. I was answering the ops question. Please read what I
> >>> said before you make your own assumptions.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sorry, statements like "haphazard way", "never well designed", "it's a
> >> mess", "they don't really resemble namespaces", "just some fancy magic",
> >> etc. have nothing to do with facts. Actually, facts are exactly the
> >> opposite - they were designed, were extensively discussed with
> >> soliciting feedback from many stakeholders, and were implemented exactly
> >> as planned. You may not like the way there were implemented, that's your
> >> opinion (not a fact) and you are entitled to it. But you didn't limit
> >> yourself to saying "I don't like them". You specifically said that they
> >> were never well designed and haphazardly implemented. This is factually
> >> false.
> >
> >
> > Stas ... One thing to bear in mind is that even for those of us for whom
> > English is our only language it is sometimes difficult to explain what we
> > mean. Sherif's were perhaps a little 'provocative' but were an accurate
> > reflection of his view on the results of implementing namespaces. It is a
> > compromise rather than something that sits naturally in PHP?
> >
> > What a lot of newcomers need to understand is that PHP is NOT compiled,
> so a
> > heck of a lot of what they are used to just happening is physically
> > impossible, and namespace is a good case in point. Personally I have yet
> to
> > see a good example of the use of namespaces in third party libraries, and
> > like Sherif avoid them preferring simply so that while the code may be
> more
> > verbose, it's clear 5 years later what was intended :) A lot of the
> current
> > 'magic' makes it difficult to pick up and work with other peoples code
> later
> > on.
>
> Right, i have to correct you there.
> You don't explicitly say it, but you do think that i'm a "newcommer".
> That's far from the truth. I've been using PHP since 2001 and i
> consider myself to be quite advanced in PHP usage.
>
> Back on the namespace topic. I won't judge on anything, but i know
> namespaces from c++. I understand that PHP isn't a compiled language
> and quite frankly that doesn't matter at all. What does matter is that
> PHP uses the name: "namespace" which C++ obviously had earlier.
> Naturally someone that knows both languaes (c++ and php) simply assume
> that a namespace in php probably works the same as those in C++. If
> that's not the case then it shouldn't even carry the "namespace" name.
>

Right, I have to correct you there. Just because a namespace doesn't act
like C++'s namespace implementation doesn't mean it's not a namespace.  A
namespace is just an abstract container which groups unique symbols
(names).  The PHP implementation does exactly that.


>
> To me this namespace in php stuff just looks like and alias. So why
> isn't it named as that: "alias"? I do not want to question the ones
> that implemented namespaces in php, but i do think that the name
> itself is at the very least confusing.
>

Because it behaves as a namespace.  Again, just because the implementation
isn't what you're used to, or even like, it still groups identifiers in
abstract containers.  I realize that the implementation and ZE backend may
cause some confusion with 'aliasing', but it's use case is the same.

Also note:

use Some\Ns\Class as MyClass;

There's an alias for you. ;)


>
> Also, lets keep this discussion polite people. I'm not here to smash
> toes. All i would like to know is the reasoning behind the above and
> if there is any intention of changing the namespaces to be more c++
> like.
>
> Cheers,
> Mark
>
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