Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:60829
Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain gmail.com designates 209.85.216.170 as permitted sender)
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <4FD9F30F.5060304@cubiclesoft.com>
References: <CAF+90c-6VWJ_kBW=Z8Br-NOxKyuTkwStRg-OMBa6844w3=CjDA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+yzxZhx9YVarc7dYJYf5LPnTxR6eR3RYa43QsgFOe+DCw7t-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAAyV7nGJRGO9tu_UKsO+nVAp5Ks_HTsGCU+4TF2i7MeJmvkSrw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4FD9F30F.5060304@cubiclesoft.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2012 10:50:09 -0400
Message-ID: <CAAyV7nG8cr6LwiBdS7GeUeU+tspzCG-Mk1_B+h-aMsDtKS9SHQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Thomas Hruska <thruska@cubiclesoft.com>
Cc: PHP Development <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Adding a simple API for secure password hashing?
From: ircmaxell@gmail.com (Anthony Ferrara)

Thomas,

> This:
>
> http://barebonescms.com/documentation/csprng/
>
> Takes a different approach. =A0Generate one or more stored root seeds and=
 then
> use those seeds to generate as much data as is needed without risking los=
s
> of entropy. =A0It also accepts extra entropy sources as input - even weak
> sources such as an incrementing integer or serialized user-submitted data=
 -
> to further enhance the output.

Actually, I would not call that CS. Where's the white paper for the
algorithm? Where's the RFC? Just because you take data from a lot of
sources does not make it CS... And just putting the *kitchen sink*
into a single sha512 hash does not either. The vast majority of the
data that's being called entropy is purely static on the system (page
to page won't change).

Especially for something that's going into core, I'd suggest sticking
to approved, vetted algorithms. If it doesn't have an RFC or a
reviewed white-paper, I would avoid it.

Additionally, it's pushing all of the "entropy sources" into a single
hash bucket. I'd much rather see it push each one through a hmac round
with the existing data. That way, the relationship between a specific
source and the overall result is complex. It's not just complex in
relation to other data, but also into the algorithm itself...

> Adding more random sources of information to PHP is a good thing. =A0If
> something like what is being discussed is developed, it will merely becom=
e
> one more source for root seed generation. =A0The more the merrier. =A0Goo=
d
> sources of entropy are hard to come by.

Definitely agree...

> One thing I would like to recommend is add to the documentation that cert=
ain
> functions are inappropriate for specific use cases and recommend alternat=
ive
> solutions. =A0A lot of people out there think rand() and mt_rand() are
> suitable for security. =A0Maybe have a specific page in the PHP documenta=
tion
> dedicated to covering random string and number generation and link to tha=
t
> page from various function pages.

Sounds good to me...

Anthony