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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 19:45:28 +0100
Message-ID: <CAEZPtU4RVMuRkrjCAq4hCCqOGdhPiPLCnhfjqUwZG2siskK12A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@sugarcrm.com>
Cc: PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] who can vote
From: pierre.php@gmail.com (Pierre Joye)

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@sugarcrm.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
>> See the votes, there is a patch, created by people able to maintain
>> it. It is especially obvious in this case as this RFC is supported by
>> a large part of our users.
>
> Able != will. There are tons of people able to fix bugs in PHP, yet some
> stay unfixed for years.
> "Supported by users" doesn't mean these people will maintain it. It means
> they want somebody to put it in core. These are totally different things.
> Anyway, you didn't name any projects, so the conclusion is there's no
> projects that ever done what you propose to do for PHP. That's what I am
> saying.
>> I call that consensus, and our vision has been proven wrong many times
>> already, remember the "we don't need OO" back then? Not sure if you
>> were already in php.net, but that was the moto for the core. We keep
>> repeating the same mistakes.
>
> I don't see how that (which was like 10 years ago) has any relationship to
> what happens now. And IIRC first iteration of OO in PHP sucked and we still
> struggling with the fallout from that. Maybe if the php group waited, it
> might be done right the first time.

It was more about if the PHP group listened back then to the users
instead of staying between us with no or little idea about what is
actually needed from our users.

>> I can show you many other major OSS projects where feedbacks and
>> proposals from users are taken seriously without this superior
>> attitude we keep to have here.
>
> We spend huge amounts of time discussing various third party proposals, yet
> I constantly hear about that "superior attitude" and complains about "not
> considering anything" - by weird coincidence, from people whose proposals
> aren't accepted. I'm starting to suspect something is missing in this
> picture.

I do not but only see a schema being built, which create a larger gap
between our communities and the core developers. This feeling is being
confirmed when I talked to them at various events. I saw it before as
well even for proposals which got accepted. This is not about specific
proposals but about this exact discussion to go back to our old model.
I'm totally against it. That will kill any effort we have put to get
more contributors and feedback or help from our users.

>> However, and it is what we approved, OSS project leads have a voice,
>> today and here. And they are not random people, they know sometimes
>
> They do have a voice. They don't have a power to force PHP group do things
> that aren't accepted by consensus. Just as I don't have a power to force
> Apache Group or Python or Perl to do something they don't accept just
> because I use Apache or Python or Perl.

You are comparing apple and pears here.

We are not talking about giving a voice to totally irrelevant people
but well known PHP project leaders, who already contribute to PHP in
one way or another. We are not either talking about them telling us
what to implement, or what to do next. That won't change and did not
change for what we have done in the past, as you can see in 5.4.0.

Cheers,
-- 
Pierre

@pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org