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Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:46:06 +0100
Message-ID: <CAEZPtU4S9_bA54+Hs-DbKYJLrdtOTjNVJG-pDX4Yok+zzh3A9w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@sugarcrm.com>
Cc: PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] who can vote
From: pierre.php@gmail.com (Pierre Joye)

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@sugarcrm.com> wrote:
> Hi!
>
>> can keep dreaming about our famous "let make it easy to people to
>> contribute", it won't work as we are not willing to give them a voice.


> I don't think one implies the other. If one helps PHP project it's great,
> really, but that doesn't mean one can have his pet feature pushed through
> over objections of other project participants. It can't work this way -
> there should be control and there should be consensus.

Pet feature? Can you please have more respects to proposals?

>> The last example of such a case is the SplClassLoader, the gap between
>> our communities and us is getting even larger. I think it is time to
>> consider their views and voices, especially as we get new contributors
>> (you know, the people actually doing the job?).
>
> So who exactly of the people that's actually doing the job is not allowed to
> contribute his ideas?

See the votes, there is a patch, created by people able to maintain
it. It is especially obvious in this case as this RFC is supported by
a large part of our users.


> I don't remember any horrible things and any dictatorship happening in the
> history of PHP that led to any unimaginable horrors. As in any big project,
> there were mistakes, there were screwups and there were unobvious decisions
> that in the hindsight look bad - but I don't see how more people voting on
> anything could prevent anything of that happening.

I call that consensus, and our vision has been proven wrong many times
already, remember the "we don't need OO" back then? Not sure if you
were already in php.net, but that was the moto for the core. We keep
repeating the same mistakes.

> Majority does not solve anything. Being majority doesn't automatically makes
> it right. I do not believe right technical decision can be taken by
> measuring majority in votes, especially if we're talking about giving equal
> voice to everybody regardless of they level of informed-ness in the details
> of the project, understanding of the project and commitment to the project.
> I understand that people want their voices to be heard, and this is welcome,
> but tell me how many projects you know that anybody can come there and
> demand features and changes and have the same vote as core project
> developers without even being a contributor? Can you do it in any of major
> open source projects?

I can show you many other major OSS projects where feedbacks and
proposals from users are taken seriously without this superior
attitude we keep to have here.

Now, tell me where I said that random people should have the same
weight than a core developer (whatever is a core developer today....).
I never said that.

However, and it is what we approved, OSS project leads have a voice,
today and here. And they are not random people, they know sometimes
much better than us what should be added to the core (be language, or
functions in an extension like spl).

Cheers,
-- 
Pierre

@pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org