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Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 04:03:58 -0700
Message-ID: <BANLkTinUzw2es3eXXFf9pypkONF9TV7Kng@mail.gmail.com>
To: Derick Rethans <derick@php.net>
Cc: Stas Malyshev <smalyshev@sugarcrm.com>, PHP Internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Voting does not belong on the wiki! (Was: [PHP-DEV]
 5.4 moving forward)
From: ronabop@gmail.com (Ronald Chmara)

On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Derick Rethans <derick@php.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jun 2011, Stas Malyshev wrote:
>> > - a call to vote is easily drowned out on the ML with all the noise
>> I read the same ML as you do :) Using threaded email client it is very
>> easy to separate new threads and see calls for votes.
> That is subjective. And even with a threaded client, if there are 80+
> new messages then the call for vote is drowned out.

We have *at least*a million PHP users. Maybe a billion now. (For those
who were educated in the United States, a billion is a thousand times
a million).

If someone can't handle as mere 80 votes, well... maybe that's the problem.

> *Requiring*
> something like [VOTE] in the subject helps, as then you can set-up a
> filter. And if it's a requirement, every call without [VOTE] in the
> subject is invalid. (Easy to fix if somebody forgot it as well). It
> would expose this kind of thing.

Read. Every. Message... or figure out another way.

If you do not have the time to do so, maybe it's time to "check out"
of a project. I read 900+ emails a day. I do not think others are
incapable of this.

>> Also, voting on ML does not solve the "drowning out" problem, it makes
>> it worse as about 80% of the people in given vote in a given moment
>> can't say what they are/supposed to be voting for, is discussion still
>> ongoing and what's the consensus, if any.
> I didn't disagree with this.

All voting is messy. As are opinions.

>> > - editting votes on a wiki can too easily be manipulated (I could just
>> > =A0 =A0change your votes, and there would be no trail).
>> Votes are public, if you see somebody edited it you'd notice. As
>> editing could be done only by admins (if I understand correctly, same
>> guys having root on pretty much all PHP infrastructure) if a plugin is
>> used (see below) I don't think it's a big concern.
>> > And IMO, those two things should be sorted out before we "decide" to d=
o
>> > votes by editting some page on some wiki.

My problem is with the idea, and practice, of astroturfing, and other
vote stacking methods. Moving from a mailinglist to a wiki does not
change this problem, it just provides another media to play with....
without addressing the issue.

I've been with the PHP project, off and on, for at least ten years now
(hell, I have had "core commit" for ages, but rasmus, stas, zeev, andi
wouldn't even recognize my face). and I've seen... interesting....
things over the years. It's not a democracy, it's a meritocracy. Votes
don't count for much, other than expressing interest. If you want to
change core, you have to send patches.

Good patches.

Working patches.

Patches that don't fuck up testers,

We can argue for years about whether or not code *should* be written,
and take useless votes (IMHO)  about it, or we can write the code.
What we should not do... is whine about others not writing the code
for us.

Putting the whine on a mailing list, or a wiki, or twitter, or IRC, or
<whatever> won't change that.

-Ronabop