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Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 03:39:46 -0500
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To: Rasmus Lerdorf <rasmus@lerdorf.com>
Cc: Lester Caine <lester@lsces.co.uk>, PHP internals <internals@lists.php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] annotations again
From: dukeofgaming@gmail.com (dukeofgaming)

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On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 2:45 AM, Rasmus Lerdorf <rasmus@lerdorf.com> wrote:

>
> The roadmap is in the form of a feature list which you can find at
> <http://wiki.php.net/etc>wiki.php.net/etc
> There is never going to be complete agreement on any feature, but once
> there is enough agreement from the main stakeholders in a certain feature
> and the implementation looks feasible both from a technical perspective a=
nd
> from actually having someone willing to do the work, it gets assigned to =
a
> release.
>

The link doesn't work, but I'm assuming it is this one?:
https://wiki.php.net/todo


> In the case of annotations there were some serious stakeholders, like
> Matthew, Sebastian and others who really do understand what annotations a=
re
> and why they are needed, but they did not agree with the proposed approac=
h.
> That's why we have the RFCs and that's why these discussions flare up aro=
und
> release time. It triggers people to take a really serious look at a featu=
re
> to see how it would work for them.
>

In other words, the ideal situation to move this particular case forward is
to have more stakeholders join the discussion, right?. An issue that I see
here is that it is not that easy to join in the discussion because:

a) They would need to be already in the list to have an easy way to access
all the messages
b) The "thread" is too disperse to follow in
http://news.php.net/php.internals/
c) The public mirror of the newsgroup is faulty, see
http://news.php.net/php.internals/52242 for example

*command too long: XPATH <4DC826B1.4090806@lerdorf.com> <
4DC82A36.8090604@lerdorf.com> <4DC83401.2090202@sugarcrm.com><
4DC8D122.3050507@lsces.co.uk> <4DC8F125.2010503@toolpark.com> <
4DC8FB1A.7040206@lerdorf.com>*


My suggestion for this =97and it would be a rather disruptive one, I know=
=97 is
to move the lists to Google Groups, or at least create one or two as an
experiment, say: php-userland and php-dev.

BTW, Guilherme is an important stakeholder too, he has participated in
Doctrine2 annotation-related work:
https://github.com/doctrine/doctrine2/blob/master/lib/Doctrine/ORM/Mapping/=
Driver/AnnotationDriver.php


> And yes there is a lot of noise. You will see quite a few uninformed
> opinions, and a few informed ones. We have always kept things completely
> open for anyone to have their say. This openness gives people access, but=
 it
> also often gives people the sense that there is complete chaos. We are no=
t
> .Net.
>

That I understand, respect and applaud. Still, I think a better process
would provide more transparency (openness !=3D=3D transparency), which is a=
n
issue I've seen others complain about. This way, people willing to implemen=
t
their own feature might understand easier that if they help out with
existing actionable PHP problems, the community could shift more easily
their attention to their proposals.

The way I see it, PHP has moved by inertia all these years, and it has
worked, but I think there are measures that could be taken to lead the
discussions towards a more productive path. For example, is there anyone at
all that does some kind of moderation?, and I don't mean the coercive type,
but the "hey guys, this seems off-topic, can you start this discussion on
another email thread?" type of moderation.

Best regards,

David Vega

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