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To: Pierre Joye <pierre.php@gmail.com>
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Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] PHP 5.4 - Meta attribute (aka. Annotations) support
 discussion
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Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:39:56 +0000
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Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] PHP 5.4 - Meta attribute (aka. Annotations) support
 discussion
From: zeev@zend.com (Zeev Suraski)

Suggesting phpdoc is used for the purposes mentioned does not mean we don't=
 understand what we're talking about.

Zeev


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pierre Joye [mailto:pierre.php@gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 12:43 AM
> To: Zeev Suraski
> Cc: guilhermeblanco@gmail.com; PHP internals
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] PHP 5.4 - Meta attribute (aka. Annotations) suppor=
t
> discussion
>=20
> hi,
>=20
> The good reason is to actually understand what we are talking about.
> And seeing phpdoc mentioned in almost all replies tell me that we don't.
>=20
> On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 11:22 PM, Zeev Suraski <zeev@zend.com> wrote:
> > I don't see a point in repeating the discussion we've already had on th=
at
> topic several weeks ago. =A0There needs to be an overwhelmingly good reas=
on
> to add a brand new syntax to the language, a whole branch of it in the ca=
se of
> annotations - and there simply isn't.
> >
> > Zeev
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: guilhermeblanco@gmail.com [mailto:guilhermeblanco@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 7:08 PM
> >> To: PHP internals
> >> Subject: [PHP-DEV] PHP 5.4 - Meta attribute (aka. Annotations)
> >> support discussion
> >>
> >> Hi folks,
> >>
> >> I'll start a series of topics (in this thread) about meta attribute (a=
ka.
> >> Annotations) discussion.
> >> So as soon as we agree on each topic I'll open another point to be
> discussed.
> >> Only when we reach some consensus I'll open another topic discussion.
> >> I suggest to have a poll for each topic, so we can do some democratic
> >> internals decision. I'd reduce the scope of voters to only people
> >> with PHP karma.
> >>
> >> The first topic to be defined is: Does PHP need meta attribute support=
?
> >>
> >> Any language is built at the top of syntax, words, semantics and conte=
xt.
> >> We cannot define it as a language if we don't have these 4 parts well
> >> fit together.
> >> For a simple sentence like: I am all ears, we can easily identify thes=
e parts.
> >> But the real meaning of this sentence (context) is only achieved with
> >> another part of the language: signifier-significate.
> >> A signifier is an atomic form, material element, visible, sensitive.
> >> A significate is an idea, semantic content, conceptual element, not
> >> sensitive perceptive.
> >>
> >> This important part is only reminded when we get back to semantics,
> >> specifically when talking about idiomatic expressions, a metaphor in
> >> our sample. The meaning will only work if we have the context, a
> >> known information. Our sentence would mean that spoker person only
> >> have ears, while the true meaning is that he/she is paying attention.
> >> A computer language doesn't differ from a language by any means. We
> >> have tokens (words), a syntax, semantic. But the lack of
> >> contextualization brings a hole on language and how your application
> >> should behave. This behavior can be achieved by many different ways;
> >> the simplest way is known as meta information.
> >>
> >> Considering you have a lack of idiomatic expressions knowledge of
> >> someone that is reading. He'd think person only have ears, but if you
> >> meta notify him that it is a metaphor, he'd try to find a different me=
aning.
> Example:
> >> (Metaphor) I am all ears.
> >>
> >> Now that we find how meta-information can benefit languages, it is
> >> time to understand how meta-information can benefit a computer
> language.
> >>
> >> A good example is define a Service that validates Domain Objects.
> >> Imagining a scenario where you have a User class that holds email and
> >> password. Email and password fields must be validated, for example,
> >> email as an email and password with at least 6 chars. A generic
> >> validation service could not have the User validation hardcoded
> >> inside the service, so the solution would be an external factor that
> >> explains to service how to validate the DO. One of the possible
> >> implementations would be a UserValidator class that contains
> >> validation rules for each field. This external factor is a good
> >> sample of meta-information. But how would a meta attribute would solve
> this situation?
> >> A Service could simple retrieve the validation instructions by
> >> Reflecting the class which instance is going to be validated.
> >> Basically, to validate a Domain Object, it is simply required to add
> >> validation rules on desired attributes. Example:
> >>
> >> class User {
> >> =A0 =A0 <Email Meta Information>
> >> =A0 =A0 protected $email;
> >>
> >> =A0 =A0 <At least 6 chars Meta Information>
> >> =A0 =A0 protected $password;
> >> }
> >>
> >> *NOTE*: Please understand that this do not enter in any
> >> implementation details. It is not time (yet) to talk baout docblock, n=
ew
> syntax, etc.
> >> Scope now is simpler than that.
> >>
> >> Now that is possible to see how meta attribute support could benefit
> >> a language, I compiled a simple list of known projects and how can
> >> they benefit of meta support:
> >> - phpUnit Providing meta functionality for test cases, examples:
> >> @dataProvider for test data iteration, @expectedException for
> >> catching exceptions, etc.
> >> - Doctrine For Object-Relational mapping, examples: @Entity,
> >> @OneToOne, @Id, etc.
> >> - Zend Framework Server classes Used to automate mappings for
> >> XML-RPC, SOAP, etc.
> >> - FLOW3 for dependency injection and validation
> >> - Symfony2 for validation and routing rules
> >> - Others: Validation, Functional Behavior injection (which could take
> >> advantage of Traits), etc.
> >>
> >>
> >> Poll will be opened for voting for 7 days (1 week) starting from now.
> >> Poll will be closed next Monday at 5pm GMT.
> >> Question: Does PHP need meta attribute support?
> >>
> >> Happy voting!
> >>
> >> --
> >> Guilherme Blanco
> >> Mobile: +55 (16) 9215-8480
> >> MSN: guilhermeblanco@hotmail.com
> >> S=E3o Paulo - SP/Brazil
> >>
> >> --
> >> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe,
> visit:
> >> http://www.php.net/unsub.php
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Pierre
>=20
> @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org