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Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 12:05:05 -0400
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Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] On how a little knowledge is completely useless.
From: jbondc@openmv.com ("Jonathan Bond-Caron")

On Fri Sep 17 03:13 PM, Ralph Schindler wrote:
> Inline response:
>=20
> On 9/17/10 1:57 PM, Jonathan Bond-Caron wrote:
> > On Fri Sep 17 01:06 PM, Guilherme Blanco wrote:
> >>
> >> Another good example is to map your persistence data into your=20
> >> Entities. Doctrine 2 implements this and I think that way you can=20
> >> compare easily with the PHP code alternative. I'd like to ask you=20
> >> to compate the same Entity mapped through Annotations emulator and
> using
> >> raw PHP code:
> >> CmsUser using Annotations:
> >>
> http://github.com/doctrine/doctrine2/blob/master/tests/Doctrine/Tests
> >> /
> >> M
> >> odels/CMS/CmsUser.php
> >> CmsUser using PHP code:
> >>
> http://github.com/doctrine/doctrine2/blob/master/tests/Doctrine/Tests
> >> / O RM/Mapping/php/Doctrine.Tests.ORM.Mapping.User.php
> >>
> >
> > You're basically bundling (M: Model, data&  configuration, C:
> Control, business logic / code) into a single class while the MVC=20
> pattern is all about separating M,V and C.
>=20
> Jonathan, I think you are misinterpreting this code.  There is no=20
> Controller (Front controller, or parameter mapping from $_POST or
> $_GET) nor View responsibilities (echo) here.  These are all Model
> concerns:

I'm not talking about "web mvc" and mapping urls to controllers.=20
There's another pattern where you have a controller (php class) and a =
data model (sql schema, .xsd, ...)=20

Problem statement: How do I map class properties to a given data model =
(sql schema, .xsd, ...)?

Some believe (strong opinions) that using annotations to do this is not =
a "good example", though abundant usage in java.

It would better serve the discussion if "good" and "bad" was left out =
and if annotations were presented and promoted in a more neutral way.

If we take a more fun example, how is a swiss army knife useful?

- It can be used to open cans of food.
- It can be used to cut hair.
- It can be used to shave in the morning.
...

I have full faith in the ability of core developers to make their own =
opinions on how annotations can be useful to the php community at large. =
There are more things to be considered then technical arguments.

The bigger emerging problem is the complete lack of "formal process" to =
propose changes to php's syntax:
a) How to write a proposal to be accepted for review
b) How and by who the proposal will be reviewed
c) Who makes the final decision (e.g. executive committee) to approve or =
reject a proposal.

Going back to annotations, the discussions seems to be bouncing from (a) =
to (c) while it seems like we are still at (a).

I've been following internals only for the past couple of years and I =
don't know enough the history but it seems like it would be time to =
write a document that defines a "formal process" to propose syntax =
changes (Zend/zend_language_parser.y, ...?)=20

I'm more than willing to start writing a draft, e.g. a much simplified =
version of:
http://jcp.org/en/procedures/jcp2

Is this worth a try?=20