Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:49620 Return-Path: Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 4020 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2010 15:44:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 13 Sep 2010 15:44:34 -0000 Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=zeev@zend.com; spf=pass; sender-id=pass Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=zeev@zend.com; sender-id=pass Received-SPF: pass (pb1.pair.com: domain zend.com designates 212.25.124.185 as permitted sender) X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: zeev@zend.com X-Host-Fingerprint: 212.25.124.185 il-mr1.zend.com Received: from [212.25.124.185] ([212.25.124.185:57282] helo=il-mr1.zend.com) by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP id 19/92-24501-0E64E8C4 for ; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 11:44:34 -0400 Received: from il-gw1.zend.com (unknown [10.1.1.21]) by il-mr1.zend.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7AE504BB; Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:42:28 +0200 (IST) Received: from LAP-ZEEV.zend.com ([10.1.2.26]) by il-gw1.zend.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:44:28 +0200 Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20100913174031.0d227918@zend.com> X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.0.1.0 Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:44:27 +0200 To: Benjamin Eberlei Cc: In-Reply-To: <0f5a11f744bbcf99d8217f40da3a302a@beberlei.de> References: <4C873C0F.1010200@zend.com> <4C879613.7090709@zend.com> <4C887D2B.2000605@zend.com> <4C8AC526.7000505@sugarcrm.com> <4C8B6168.30504@mohiva.com> <4C8BC81E.8000605@sugarcrm.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20100913145703.0d226d90@zend.com> <0f5a11f744bbcf99d8217f40da3a302a@beberlei.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Sep 2010 15:44:28.0216 (UTC) FILETIME=[8CA7CB80:01CB535A] Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: PHP Annotations RFC + Patch From: zeev@zend.com (Zeev Suraski) Benjamin, Strictly speaking annotations are not *needed*. They simply aren't - you can do anything and everything you might want to do without them. You can argue that the value they bring is very important, and that it outweighs the complexity they bring upon to the language - in which case we can agree to disagree. Zeev At 17:38 13/09/2010, Benjamin Eberlei wrote: >I strongly disagree! > >PHPDocs are for what their name suggests, for comments, not for runtime >code information. They allow arbitrary characters, their intent is for >human-readible documentation only. > >Yet they are used for service description (Zend_Soap_Autodiscover, >Zend_XmlRpc), metadata mapping or phpunits "annotations", just because >there is nothing better suited. > >Primary difference of Annotations, they are not only human- but also >enforced to be machine-readable. Annotations are runtime configuration or >metadata, throwing compile time parse errors when not followed correctly. >That has nothing to do with documentation, it is an very elegant way to >extend classes, methods and properties with metadata information, >configuration and code right next to each other. > >The primary target for annotations are framework and library integrations: >validation, forms, metadata mapping, static mvc configuration such as >routing, view selection or acls. Why do these features not exist with >current php libraries yet? Because developers see php doc blocks for what >they are: Comments! > >With Doctrine2 and Symfony2 we see some early experiments with annotations >in PHP Docs, but they only highlight the drawbacks: > >1. Developers should expect to be able to delete a comment/docblock >without altering the code-path. >2. Errors in the Doc-Blocks "expected formatting" are left for the >userland developer to detect. IDEs or the PHP Parser simply don't care. >3. There is no real difference for a human only readable doclbock starting >with /** or /*, however PHP just doesnt publish the /* docblocks to the >userland, leading to countless errors when that single star is missing. >4. every IDE or code-highlighting prints them in light grey, making them >sort of invisible. > >That is why annotations are needed, they make metadata a language level >construct, not a hack that is possible, because Reflection allows us to >access the comments of methods, functions, classes, ... > >greetings, >Benjamin > >On Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:05:57 +0200, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > At 20:24 11/09/2010, Pierre Joye wrote: > >>On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Stas Malyshev > >>wrote: > >> > Hi! > >> > > >> >> The separator never was a problem... but I definately don't want to > >> >> see another 6 months just to define what would the separator be. > >> >> If we need to drop [] in favor of array support, I vote for ! as > >> >> separator. > >> > > >> > The separator is not a problem (even though 1-char one produces much > >> > less > >> > clutter). The cryptic syntax is. > >> > >>It seems that there is a misunderstanding about the goals of the > >>annotations. They are not meant to be read by human being > >>(javadoc/phpdoc/etc. are) but to be parsed automatically to be used > >>for services. > >> > >>In that sense, to have a syntax closed to one of the best (or less > >>worst, if you are on the opposed side ;-) syntax out there (c#/.net) > >>may be a good thing to do, instead of re einventing the php wheel. > > > > I'm not sure we've seen a good reason to add annotations instead of > > using PHPDoc. Sure, PHPDoc isn't a perfect fit for certain purposes, > > but I think it certainly falls in the good-enough fit for most > > purposes. It's also both machine and human readable, and best of all > > - it's already there. > > There should be overwhelmingly strong reasons to add a whole new > > branch of syntax to PHP, I for one don't see the huge gain > > annotations bring on top of PHPDoc. > > > > Zeev > >-- >PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List >To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php