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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 17:23:20 +0200
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Strict typing
From: johannes@schlueters.de (Johannes =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Schl=FCter?=)

On Wed, 2010-08-11 at 09:55 -0500, Ryan Panning wrote:
> IMO some of these debates should be brought to the end 
> users. Who uses PHP in the end? The users. (And yes, I know the devs 
> here do to..) What is one thing most companies go by? The customers
> come first. This "we know best" attitude here is gone way to far.
> Please don't just leave this here, because you'll hear it from the
> users in the end anyway. A good community is one who communicates.
> Thanks

Good that this discussion happens in a secret place on a list no
"community" members can see.

Oh wait. It doesn't. Oh and wait we let users participate!

And "we know best" - well part of this is that for doing the discussion
in a sane way you need some minimum knowledge and some experience. 

I talked to PHP users on different conferences, even about type hints at
different conferences and such and if you ask them "Do you want type
hints?" most of them will answer "yes, yes, yes!" until you explain the
consequences, like I did a bit on my blog[1] (again very secret
discussion ignoring all users!). Then suddenly they agree that type
hints are bad.

But that's not their opinion. That's manipulation. Asking the question
the way you want while providing the material to support your point. (It
is hard to ask this in an "neutral" way) For _real_ argumentation you
need to really think through it. And here on the list are people who try
to do this.

Many people participating in this discussion discussed other problems,
too and then found out what the bad consequences are, and learned from
these mistakes. Others are willing to invest time to think through
ideas. Few just flame/try to push their opinion. But still this is an
open list. (sometimes unfortunately)

johannes

[1] http://schlueters.de/blog/archives/139-Scalar-type-hints-in-PHP-trunk.html