Newsgroups: php.internals
Path: news.php.net
Xref: news.php.net php.internals:41393
Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm
Received-SPF: error (pb1.pair.com: domain pooteeweet.org from 88.198.8.16 cause and error)
Cc: "Sebastian Bergmann" <sb@sebastian-bergmann.de>,
 internals@lists.php.net
Message-ID: <6BBBBBAF-E67A-4207-8068-BB609B4A3BDE@pooteeweet.org>
To: "Pierre Joye" <pierre.php@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <fe05d1540810261359w72ff74fdv785a1eba281eafaa@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2008 22:11:45 +0100
References: <49048EC1.9060908@chiaraquartet.net> <ge2bk6$hkc$1@ger.gmane.org> <E6DC9B6E-83FE-48F5-83C6-8667971A2801@pooteeweet.org> <fe05d1540810261359w72ff74fdv785a1eba281eafaa@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] namespace separator and whining
From: mls@pooteeweet.org (Lukas Kahwe Smith)


On 26.10.2008, at 21:59, Pierre Joye wrote:

> Hi Lukas,
>
> On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Lukas Kahwe Smith <mls@pooteeweet.org 
> > wrote:
>> Sebastian, you have not participated in the discussion so far. Now  
>> you post
>> a rumor you picked up on IRC into an already heated situation. You  
>> do know
>> full well that it does not require you to point out that this would  
>> indeed
>> be problematic (since people who are participating in this  
>> discussion are
>> actually aware of this). So do us all the favor and stop and think  
>> a second
>> before you post the next time.
>
> Excuse me but while the idea to have an online meeting was great,
> sending a mail to ask to attend an online meeting 24 hours before and
> on a Friday was not a wised choice. I would have participated too if
> it was during this week or the next weekend.

Admittedly the meeting was mainly scheduled to allow Greg, Dmitry/Stas  
and at least half a dozen (it was even more in the end) of core  
developers that have spend time to follow the discussions and thought  
processes to come together. We had the assumption that this was a  
sufficiently large and competent group to make a decision on something  
that many (including you) have said is important but where neither of  
the choices spell doom for PHP, while still not being easy.

Now the people that were not able to attend this IRC meeting can  
either accept that there was a sufficient number of people to make a  
final decision on something that everybody (obviously also people who  
did not attend the meeting) had plenty of time to make their concerns  
heard or you can question this approach.

> I do agree with Sebastian about not allowing functions and constants
> (from a principle point of view, as I barely see any example out there
> of NS and procedural code). I'd to say that I do not care about which
> symbol is used.

Right, there are plenty people in both camps.

> @Greg and Steph: Private discussions are bad. Or are you trying to say
> that this list can't be used as a discussion platform (even heated)?
> If we like to have a developer only list, let do it, but keep things
> in the public area, that's the only way to keep our decision process
> transparent for everyone.


As was evident from the discussions in the past weeks, a lot of people  
commented, most of which did not spend the necessary time to actually  
understand the issues at hand. Given that it did indeed make it  
impossible to bring this topic to a conclusion on the list.

As for transparency, I see no issues. The decision process was  
entirely transparent, albeit the final decision meeting was not open  
to all. Again everybody that cares had weeks/months (actually years)  
to bring up his POV. In the end there were 10 people (including both  
RMs) that made a final decision and that are prepared to take the blame.

regards,
Lukas Kahwe Smith
mls@pooteeweet.org