Newsgroups: php.internals Path: news.php.net Xref: news.php.net php.internals:41024 Return-Path: Mailing-List: contact internals-help@lists.php.net; run by ezmlm Delivered-To: mailing list internals@lists.php.net Received: (qmail 37143 invoked from network); 14 Oct 2008 20:07:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO lists.php.net) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 Oct 2008 20:07:39 -0000 Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com smtp.mail=david.zuelke@bitextender.com; spf=permerror; sender-id=unknown Authentication-Results: pb1.pair.com header.from=david.zuelke@bitextender.com; sender-id=unknown Received-SPF: error (pb1.pair.com: domain bitextender.com from 80.237.132.12 cause and error) X-PHP-List-Original-Sender: david.zuelke@bitextender.com X-Host-Fingerprint: 80.237.132.12 wp005.webpack.hosteurope.de Received: from [80.237.132.12] ([80.237.132.12:38874] helo=wp005.webpack.hosteurope.de) by pb1.pair.com (ecelerity 2.1.1.9-wez r(12769M)) with ESMTP id 6C/86-25867-1EBF4F84 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 16:06:57 -0400 Received: from dslb-088-066-178-241.pools.arcor-ip.net ([88.66.178.241] helo=[192.168.0.100]); authenticated by wp005.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM using esmtpsa (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) id 1KpqAP-0005g0-JT; Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:06:53 +0200 Cc: "Steph Fox" , "Stanislav Malyshev" , Message-ID: <15471821-3597-4F5D-87A0-5BE536D2D58C@bitextender.com> To: Lukas Kahwe Smith In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-6-894476567; micalg=sha1; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2) X-Priority: 3 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 22:06:52 +0200 References: <652122.8719.qm@web708.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48F4D832.7010708@zend.com> <033701c92e24$d9ca3d60$3ffc1f3e@foxbox> <48F4DF7E.1070202@zend.com> <038301c92e29$aa8f3aa0$3ffc1f3e@foxbox> <48F4E5B3.2030000@zend.com> <002201c92e2f$3c37f2d0$3ffc1f3e@foxbox> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2) X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de;david.zuelke@bitextender.com;1224014817;0cd72653; Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] namespaces and alpha3 From: david.zuelke@bitextender.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?David_Z=FClke?=) --Apple-Mail-6-894476567 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 14.10.2008, at 21:20, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: > On 14.10.2008, at 21:01, Steph Fox wrote: > >>>> We are in alpha indeed, and still looking at proposals, and still >>>> without consensus. The last thing I'd want is to see namespace >>>> support pushed under the carpet, but I'd rather see it at this >>>> stage of development as part of the PHP 6 development cycle (as >>>> originally >>> >>> Why? What would happen then that can't happen now? >> >> What would happen if we give the namespace implementation a chance >> to mature is that it can be delivered as a fully-fledged language >> element rather than a partially-fledged and potentially flawed one. > > Both of these approaches have some uncleanness to them. If functions > and constants get pushed to the global namespace while classes end > up in the current namespace on include it can lead to some > surprises. At the same time offering an ambiguous syntax to solve > ambiguity when it occurs is also not beautiful. If we try out one of > them in alpha3 and are unhappy I would not want an alpha4 to try out > yet another one. But we will have the alpha3 either way at this > point. So we could say lets try out the one that most people prefer > for alpha3. If it sucks, we kick it out and move on. My fear is that once this is in a release (and even if it's just an alpha), the "public" pressure to keep it will be too big. > Then we can alternatively push it to PHP 6 or drop the idea all > together. I know that Dmitry and Greg were both thinking over > alternative approaches, which did not yet come to a conclusion. Most > of that revolves around other separators between or around > namespaces. So we can keep cooking that. I believe everyone here will agree that this decision is pretty crucial. And if Dmitry and Greg have alternative approaches in the pipeline that need further pondering, then we should wait until they either finalized their proposals or declared them infeasible themselves. Why the rush. I really don't understand it. Please, no half-arsed compromises. Or, as this little green dude once said, "do, or do not. there is no try." - David --Apple-Mail-6-894476567 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=smime.p7s Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name=smime.p7s Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIGXDCCAxUw ggJ+oAMCAQICEHvgrI6DXM4XmK4XvhB7lh4wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkEx JTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQ ZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBMB4XDTA4MDgyMjE0MjEzOVoXDTA5MDgyMjE0MjEz OVowTjEfMB0GA1UEAxMWVGhhd3RlIEZyZWVtYWlsIE1lbWJlcjErMCkGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYcZGF2 aWQuenVlbGtlQGJpdGV4dGVuZGVyLmNvbTCCASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEB ANx+fe+8oUaO+fotZryRBmD3NAP00QikUIqIyZKiwJ4BS9M8DdqN0lAh443rdw1h/H0NVkDMv7+7 MnSUYKU+BTwulvU7WDGLm7JGkXXWkGl5vHUnUWltUkk8ImUDiunYPnuyUVyQlnZkp1ThihYoR4xo MmiiC+6mHLl8FzMKimOU/UREpGfyLqYhsNdXiVgm+W8feO6aY3fDaenn9EVZEXJs6t7KxLpCIlD2 8+0dHlX+91vV4a9zfMObjEkLW3w/uBTT+uHypySHo/EWw0/pOD34sMdhSh0Xyr4un+Uv/DHH1ft3 5TJq6DEIrIL4iUpGa7Nsqjoah5SgpWwJY+gWaC8CAwEAAaNcMFowDgYDVR0PAQH/BAQDAgSwMBEG CWCGSAGG+EIBAQQEAwIFIDAnBgNVHREEIDAegRxkYXZpZC56dWVsa2VAYml0ZXh0ZW5kZXIuY29t MAwGA1UdEwEB/wQCMAAwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADgYEAbEPiMjevqmbl2NuGieZkF5fNV1Uhr0dL wGDDxIcIHGnBeEBVy/5NpAKJUCU4lqG+bqD1S4MdyyLxvzlhOSZEqjcEwtwXqLVsaDakYFHsRGaS DU160+1b/wlf8/OR5tof7y5MA8p6MSQHjXWOy38A71wvwFowGZPF5lY617W5mUMwggM/MIICqKAD AgECAgENMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMIHRMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEVMBMGA1UECBMMV2VzdGVybiBD YXBlMRIwEAYDVQQHEwlDYXBlIFRvd24xGjAYBgNVBAoTEVRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nMSgwJgYD VQQLEx9DZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIFNlcnZpY2VzIERpdmlzaW9uMSQwIgYDVQQDExtUaGF3dGUgUGVy c29uYWwgRnJlZW1haWwgQ0ExKzApBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWHHBlcnNvbmFsLWZyZWVtYWlsQHRoYXd0 ZS5jb20wHhcNMDMwNzE3MDAwMDAwWhcNMTMwNzE2MjM1OTU5WjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTElMCMG A1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBlcnNv bmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0EwgZ8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADgY0AMIGJAoGBAMSmPFVz VftOucqZWh5owHUEcJ3f6f+jHuy9zfVb8hp2vX8MOmHyv1HOAdTlUAow1wJjWiyJFXCO3cnwK4Va qj9xVsuvPAsH5/EfkTYkKhPPK9Xzgnc9A74r/rsYPge/QIACZNenprufZdHFKlSFD0gEf6e20Txh BEAeZBlyYLf7AgMBAAGjgZQwgZEwEgYDVR0TAQH/BAgwBgEB/wIBADBDBgNVHR8EPDA6MDigNqA0 hjJodHRwOi8vY3JsLnRoYXd0ZS5jb20vVGhhd3RlUGVyc29uYWxGcmVlbWFpbENBLmNybDALBgNV HQ8EBAMCAQYwKQYDVR0RBCIwIKQeMBwxGjAYBgNVBAMTEVByaXZhdGVMYWJlbDItMTM4MA0GCSqG SIb3DQEBBQUAA4GBAEiM0VCD6gsuzA2jZqxnD3+vrL7CF6FDlpSdf0whuPg2H6otnzYvwPQcUCCT cDz9reFhYsPZOhl+hLGZGwDFGguCdJ4lUJRix9sncVcljd2pnDmOjCBPZV+V2vf3h9bGCE6u9uo0 5RAaWzVNd+NWIXiC3CEZNd4ksdMdRv9dX2VPMYIDEDCCAwwCAQEwdjBiMQswCQYDVQQGEwJaQTEl MCMGA1UEChMcVGhhd3RlIENvbnN1bHRpbmcgKFB0eSkgTHRkLjEsMCoGA1UEAxMjVGhhd3RlIFBl cnNvbmFsIEZyZWVtYWlsIElzc3VpbmcgQ0ECEHvgrI6DXM4XmK4XvhB7lh4wCQYFKw4DAhoFAKCC AW8wGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQUxDxcNMDgxMDE0MjAwNjUy WjAjBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxFgQU3U8OCg3KD03tIpTkXbIDBfo01jkwgYUGCSsGAQQBgjcQBDF4MHYw YjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBDb25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAq BgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJc3N1aW5nIENBAhB74KyOg1zOF5iuF74Q e5YeMIGHBgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzF4oHYwYjELMAkGA1UEBhMCWkExJTAjBgNVBAoTHFRoYXd0ZSBD b25zdWx0aW5nIChQdHkpIEx0ZC4xLDAqBgNVBAMTI1RoYXd0ZSBQZXJzb25hbCBGcmVlbWFpbCBJ c3N1aW5nIENBAhB74KyOg1zOF5iuF74Qe5YeMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAG9iQGdZezQqBB6J neYfGnGZRUAReHQ6Big2iX3U0S/+6eSdfbYVNH1LYdIiGWhSl866E9iy5n/so80dmpizzeSYTIbY oseAD8kN8tlbTn04F4D07kCADVmykitLFQT8txKcT4WBEZIG63k9tbhTCdFzTK0/K03Hq3RZ+bOh TRijXqGa2frYovLp+0EUS3jDNYCzOl7SIWwjBtcGnlK8Or9FWIMu30B8RiNXo/6NrqaSbob07dc3 4oxfrViihyUbGfyQ82GYcR0aG7UnN5syOdbCCLiWY8FZIAQf8yJHAsl9Y5SLrsE2Bj6AE87g4PjY 3cTTdNNATRRDSPdrZrRutFEAAAAAAAA= --Apple-Mail-6-894476567--