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Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 12:44:23 +0200
Reply-To: Marcus Boerger <helly@php.net>
Message-ID: <675806383.20080830124423@marcus-boerger.de>
To: Stanislav Malyshev <stas@zend.com>
CC: Marcus Boerger <helly@php.net>, 
	Hannes Magnusson <hannes.magnusson@gmail.com>, 
	Felipe Pena <felipensp@gmail.com>, Lukas Kahwe Smith <mls@pooteeweet.org>, 
	PHP Internals List <internals@lists.php.net>, 
	=?iso-8859-1?Q?Johannes_Schl=FCter?= <johannes@php.net>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] alpha2 scheduled
From: helly@php.net (Marcus Boerger)

Hello Stanislav,

Friday, August 29, 2008, 7:53:02 PM, you wrote:

> Hi!

>> It wasn't designed to have multiple namespaces at all to begin with. But as

> You mean multiple namespaces per file, right? Otherwise it sounds kind 
> of silly. Yes, it wasn't designed to have multiple namespaces per file, 
> and it's really bad idea to have multiple namespaces per file in 90% of 
> the cases. In the remaining 10% it's probably a bad idea too.

>> How so?
>> 
>> namespace foo {
>>   namespace bar {
>>     class baz {}
>>   }
>> }
>> 
>> According to your won words it is all about name substitution. Explicitly
>> you were talking about simple text replacement. Now that in mind I see and

> No, it's not simple replacement, because hierarchy brings hierarchical 
> resolution, like it is in Ruby.

Wasn't it you who said it is all about simple replacement?

However, you always said we shouldn't compare PHP features to other
languages and that for that reason we should not worry about the
keyword naming for instance. And that for the same reason we should
not take a specific implementation of another language. Why are you
suddenly taking Ruby's behavior as the thing to implement, if we
were going that route? [1]

But anyway, we seem to have to discuss the behavior in more detail.
For instance on 17th July Greg, who was very much involved in the
whole namespce implementation, summarized the open discussion points
and you simply turned the discussion dead immediately [2]. If people
constantly start mailing about issues they have, then we need to
address that or even get rid of the feature but we cannot say: this
is it, live with it as it is or not use it at all. None of that would
be the PHP way where we always have been trying to come to a simple
solution that works for everyone.

Personally, my take is that I don't need nesting but simply see it
as the natural thing to add. And text replacement, which is what the
current PHP implementation does, works pretty damn well for me. But
all I want is nested namespace and Felipe and I have a patch that
can hopefully be submitted during this weekend. Nesting or not does
not really matter to me. But seems to matter to other poeple. What
I totally disagree with, on the other hand, is namespaces without
curly braces - but that is no secret.

[1] http://marc.info/?l=php-internals&m=118728444125687&w=2
Quote: "PHP is neither C++ not Java. Choosing which language to
mimic - Java or C++ - is not the right way to think about the problem"

[2] http://marc.info/?l=php-internals&m=121627681216482&w=2
Quote: "OMG, not again... How many times should we talk about the same
thing?"

Best regards,
 Marcus