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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:28:48 -0800
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To: Chris Stockton <chrisstocktonaz@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] why we must get rid of unicode.semantics switch ASAP
From: rasmus@lerdorf.com (Rasmus Lerdorf)

I don't disagree with this, and that is actually why I insisted on 
having the unicode-semantics switch from the early days of the Unicode 
discussions, so you can blame me, again, if you consider it a bad design 
decision.

My take on it was that just about all ISPs would run with Unicode 
semantics off and that the Unicode semantics on mode was more geared for 
large standalone applications and sites that wanted the luxury of 
working natively in their chosen character set without needing to always 
jump through hoops.

If we get rid of the switch, then I agree that we can't make the default 
string IS_UNICODE.  We would be crippling the implementation and taking 
a step backwards in terms of leading the way in Unicode adoption.  The 
longterm goal for just about everyone has got to be a "Unicode 
everywhere" approach.  It used to be that the Web was primarily a 
Western single-byte charset phenomena, but that hasn't been the case for 
years.  All major applications out there have implemented various hacks 
to deal with these issues, some with more success than others.

This is what PHP does.  We take common Web development pains and try to 
reduce them.  Think back to the pains of XML parsing in PHP 3 and even 
in PHP 4 compared to today.

Ultimately we need to get to Unicode everywhere, and the Unicode 
semantics switch was an acknowledgement that the world isn't quite ready 
for that yet.  But it sounds like the world isn't ready for the switch 
either.  Without it, I am afraid we will never get there, and that may 
just be something we have to live with.

-Rasmus

Chris Stockton wrote:
> I partially agree, I have been watching this discussion and it's funny
> how we have such a class of high end developers saying to break old
> PHP code. But, the majority of the success of PHP is not due to this
> small class of high end developers, it's due to it's availability in a
> shared hosting environment, and the ease of use for beginners, and the
> oodles of fairly poor quality code that is easy to copy and paste onto
> peoples websites.
> 
> Look at the adoption of php4, many webhosts haven't even updated to
> PHP5 completely due to things like register_globals and small
> backwards compatibility breakage. The list of problems is small and
> correctable, if you give system engineers at all of these hosting
> companies the choice of A. Upgrade to php6 and drive support calls
> through the roof, or B. Stay at PHP4/5 for eternity until a more
> (insert your complaints / rants here) language comes along to dethrone
> PHP.
> 
> Problem is, PHP has been built to great success based on it's early
> foundation, but now a group of high class developers want it to be
> more then PHP was built onto. You will sacrifice it's success if
> backwards compatibility is not just, broke, but obliterated. Why
> change PHP's philosophy? Keep it easy for the new user, keep it
> successful, and make me work a little more when I want to implement my
> "high class" development methodologies. I don't mind, I do it already.
> 
> I write this as a "high class" developer.
> 
> -1
> 
> -Chris
> 
> On Jan 22, 2008 7:32 PM, Richard Lynch <ceo@l-i-e.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, January 21, 2008 8:38 am, Antony Dovgal wrote:
>>> 6 reasons why we must to get rid of The Switch ASAP
>>> ----------------------------------------------------
>> I was +1...
>>
>> Until folks started posting that old PHP scripts won't run as-is in
>> PHP 6?...
>>
>> That's just daft...
>>
>> When my webhost upgrades to PHP 6, I need all my old scripts to just
>> keep on chugging away, as much as possible...
>>
>> I really think we're stuck with the default "string" being an
>> old-school binary string, unless you want to lose a LOT of users in a
>> hurry, or have PHP 5 stick around forever and ever.
>>
>> --
>> Some people have a "gift" link here.
>> Know what I want?
>> I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist.
>> http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch
>> Yeah, I get a buck. So?
>>
>>
>> --
>> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
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>>
>>
>