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Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 10:15:04 +0000
Reply-To: RQuadling@GoogleMail.com
To: "Steph Fox" <steph@zend.com>
Cc: "Rob Richards" <rrichards@ctindustries.net>, 
	"Elizabeth Smith" <emsmith@elizabethmariesmith.com>, 
	internals@lists.php.net
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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Providing Visual Studio 2005 builds (again)
From: rquadling@googlemail.com ("Richard Quadling")

On 14/11/2007, Steph Fox <steph@zend.com> wrote:
> Hi Richard,
>
> > It would be useful to see some stats about actual performance
> > increases from using the new runtime. If it is minimal, then
> > cost/benifit isn't great and we are probably going to have to
> > "make-do" for a while on VC6.
>
> Agree.
>
> > But, if MSVC2005EE (Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition -
> > specifically chosen because of the "free" nature of the product -
> > giving more opportunity to us unfortunates who have to normally pay
> > for all of our development tools to "have a go" at building our own
> > PHP binaries), offers a significant performance increase, then this is
> > the marketing tool we use.
>
> 'marketing tool'???

"PHPx will run with these Microsoft libraries and provide a 25% on
average performance increase in real world tests" sort of thing. If
the new libraries REALLY are that much better we owe it to the users
to give it to them!
>
> > Sure, we will have to explain why you need to install a runtime
> > library, but this is windows.
>
> And these are Windows users.

Ha. Yes. I see your point, but for those INSTALLING PHP, they would
prefer an MSI which just "did it". So, bundle the libs and move on.

>
> Windows users unknowningly install the
> > latest runtime all the time. Many MSI installers have them there
> > simply because that is the safest way to install it and have you app
> > run.
> >
> > Sure it makes the binary package bigger, so you have 2 packages - one
> > with and one without. You make the recommendation that you have the
> > "with" package if you are not sure of the difference.
> >
> > Even at this current time, PHP is relying on the presence of a runtime
> > library. It just so happens that it is so ancient that it is not
> > possible to be on windows without it.
>
> 'Relies on the presence of' is not the same thing as 'distributes'. The
> runtime library we rely on the presence of has been shipped by MS since
> Windows 98.
>
> > So, give 'Liz the space. Please. So those of us who will benefit from
> > her expertise can do so.
>
> Where did anyone say she should have no space?

Ok, support then. Rather than a no we are not, but an OK, yes, good
idea, let's do it and see what the problems are.

> >
> > I really feel that the core developers who only deal with *nix really
> > should allow those that deal with windows be allowed to do so. It has
> > no impact on *nix development other than making code compliant across
> > multiple platforms (a good thing, surely?)
>
> Couldn't agree more. Although actually most of the *nix guys have ended up
> having to load doze at some point because otherwise Windows bugs don't get
> tested/fixed.

Some of us doze users submit patches which are overlooked or ignored!

> > As a windows user I feel that we need to move forward and offer
> > another binary which takes advantage of a more modern run time - if
> > the benefit can be expressed.
>
> Are you assuming a Windows user is a rarity? lol

No, I would guess that most people who INTERACT with PHP are windows
users. Most people who CODE PHP with are probably NOT windows users.
So, more *nix webservers, but more IE browsers.

"Prove the benefit! Enhance the world!" (to suckingly paraphrase Heroes).

>
> - Steph
>
>

Richard.
-- 
-----
Richard Quadling
Zend Certified Engineer : http://zend.com/zce.php?c=ZEND002498&r=213474731
"Standing on the shoulders of some very clever giants!"