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Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: [PHP-DEV] Renaming namespaces to packages]
From: ralph@smashlabs.com (Ralph Schindler)

Stanislav Malyshev wrote:
>> Wikipedia also define the term MVC.  But alas, that is a conceptual 
>> definition, not blueprints for implementation.
> 
> Who cares about the implementation? It's still MVC. So let's implement 
> MVC and call it "distributed enterprise messaging" and then let's spend 
> next 2 years explaining that it was really MVC that we meant.

My point is simply that there is a different between the concept and 
someones interpretation of the concept that influences an actual 
implementation.  MVC, although overly used in these web 2.1-rc4 days, is 
not a product, or even an implementation.. Its a pattern for development 
and a concept.  ZF-MVC is an implementation of this pattern, as is 
Symfony, as is RoR, as is Django.

I use the concept of Namespaces to build a more OO friendly session 
object for Zend_Session.  Which is why we have a class called 
Zend_Session_Namespace.  Point being, its an implementation of the 
namespace concept within an implementation of a component in the Zend 
Framework.

>> namespaces and packages.  But the general taste this will leave in 
>> peoples mouthes is package, even if it is a Grapple.
> 
> I am still waiting to know what is package? I know what is namespace - 
> and I for everybody that doesn't know I can explain it in 2 minutes with 
> one hand tied behind my back. But what is "package"?

PACKAGES ARE a namespace implementation with file/directory/and or other 
filesystem restrictions.

I would go out on a limb and say that if you surveyed a large majority 
of languages and developers, that statement above would fit most peoples 
perception of "what a package is".

>> current implementation doesn't have braces; this (consequently) adds a 
> 
> Ouch, not braces again. What is it with braces that you need them so 
> badly? Many languages aren't using the things ever, isn't it a proof 
> that there's life outside braces? ;)

Its not a point of needing them so badly.  The point is what the lack of 
braces implies within the language itself.  Instead of namespace scope 
ending at a brace, its now ending at the end OF A FILE; hence 
introducing a FILESYSTEM restriction.

Questions: can I run an interactive php shell and define a few 
namespaces and classes to use in a runtime environment?  Say, using, 
PHP_Shell in pear?

Can I have more than one namespace in a single file?

>> library "packages".  Point in case is how the ZF has used a 
>> pesudo-namespace-ing class name to accomplish the very same thing.
> 
> ZF is using Very_Very_Long_And_Very_Irritating_Class_Names because 
> there's no choice to do otherwise. That's why we wrote namespaces - to 
> provide this choice.

True, but we are also talking about library components that are 
regulated by some coding standards, specifically, the one class per file 
requirement.  This itself is not a PHP thing, its a ZF-Coding Standards 
thing.  Using package implies a "one namespaced package per file rule" 
whereas the simple term of "namespace" does not (at least to me).

>> +1 on package, it makes the most sense regardless of the marketing 
>> draw of "namespace" support.
> 
> Please re-read my mail on perception. "Marketing" here is just a way to 
> say "perception" so it sounds bad to some people for some reason.

Well, you talked about sending out the press release about "PHP has 
namespace support!".. and that is pure marketing ;)

But I agree with you in that the long term goal is about developer 
perception, and thats why its important to have this decided.

-ralph