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Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Question about Namespace patch
From: stas@zend.com (Stanislav Malyshev)

 > Absolutely not the case. Take a look at C++, C#, even Python. The
 > "namespaces" implementation of those languages is mostly consistent
 > (even if Python doesn't call it that).

Come on, python modules are not like C++ namespaces at all. For 
starters, AFAIK, python doesn't even have namespace declaration 
operator. And module loading and namespacing are combined.

  > You're not helping developers at all with this implementation. If you're

How many developers did you ask, honestly? I had asked some, and they 
say it helps. Including on the list. You wanted to say I'm not helping 
some other developers? Well, too bad, there's no patch that can solve 
everybody's problems :)

> working with a large library and have to import a lot of classes, the
> way this works is nothing but a pain. We would be better off not using
> namespaces at all, in this case. Thus, the problem has not been solved.

Once more, you DO NOT have to import a lot of classes. Please do read 
what I write. You SHOULD NOT import classes in global space. Namespaces 
are NOT the way to bring all classes in global space, and it should not 
be done.

> Also, for the implementation to be complete, Core Developers and
> Extension Developers would need to namespace their classes / functions.

Not necessarily. So far PHP core & PECL has been OK without it, there's 
not too many classes and the names are quite manageable, unless I miss 
something.

> but you still need to offer developers *some* way of importing
> everything out of a namespace. I absolutely will have upwards to close

No, I don't need that.

> to 25 - 30 classes in a single namespace. And sometimes more. To be able
> to import them all is an absolute necessity for this implementation to

No, it is not an absolute necessity, actually it's exactly the opposite. 
You don't want each module to inject 30 new names into global space, 
because you'll be running out of names very, very fast.

> the fact that I may be using OTHER libraries as well that may be
> namespaced.
> 
> PEAR is a perfect example of this. Look at all the libraries that exist
> there. I would absolutely love to just:
> 
> import PEAR;
> import PEAR::HTTP;
> import PEAR::Image;

Yeah, and not since you have generic PEAR exception class, HTTP 
exception class and image exception class, you've got three exception 
classes competing with system exception class for the name. Lovely. So 
now we get PEAR::PEAR_Exception to prevent that, right?  So how it's 
better than just PEAR::Exception?

> individual class that I need. And with all of the languages I mentioned
> before, that is *exactly* how it works. Of course, we're back to the

No, actually it doesn't. In python import - and that's what most use - 
doesn't bring names into global space.

> namespacing of the PHP Core and Extensions. Which is really the main
> blocker to any serious namespaces implementation, beyond what's
> currently patched to HEAD today, correct?

No, incorrect. The main blocker was that all other implementations were 
either inconsistent, hurting performance or too complex for PHP.
-- 
Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
stas@zend.com   http://www.zend.com/
(408)253-8829   MSN: stas@zend.com