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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 02:22:33 -0600
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Thread-Topic: [PHP-DEV] Question about Namespace patch
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References: <46A31D95.2080407@fischer.name> <46A42220.7010600@zend.com> <alpine.DEB.0.98.0707230854190.27483@kossu.ez.no> <E996AAF4A714DF4D9BD59E9418957A2128CD18@peak8sbs.peak8solutions.local> <46A45B12.80402@zend.com> <E996AAF4A714DF4D9BD59E9418957A2128CD19@peak8sbs.peak8solutions.local> <cd5680a20707230113r576a1cf8u6e4ae91402ebb274@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Alexey Zakhlestin" <indeyets@gmail.com>
Cc: "Stanislav Malyshev" <stas@zend.com>,
	"Derick Rethans" <derick@php.net>,
	"Markus Fischer" <markus@fischer.name>,
	"internals" <internals@lists.php.net>
Subject: RE: [PHP-DEV] Question about Namespace patch
From: jeremy@peak8solutions.com ("Jeremy Privett")

Alexey,

I honestly wish that were the case with the situation I'm dealing with
at my current job. And I know a lot of people that are absolutely in the
same boat as I am.

I definitely understand your reasoning here, but we're obviously talking
about design versus convenience. This is one of those situations where
convenience makes the difference.

Was there ever a decision on whether or not the patch is going to be
backported to PHP5? I think I'll grab a PHP6 snapshot and toy around
with the implementation a bit. Who knows ... it may grow on me. We'll
see.

Thanks.

---
Jeremy Privett
Software Developer
Peak8 Solutions

-----Original Message-----
From: Alexey Zakhlestin [mailto:indeyets@gmail.com]=20
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 2:14 AM
To: Jeremy Privett
Cc: Stanislav Malyshev; Derick Rethans; Markus Fischer; internals
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Question about Namespace patch

In reality, it is rarely (almost never) needed to import all the
classes. Usually you need 2-4 per file, not more, and importing just
what you really need is the step to a clean design.

You don't need to import every class which is used implicitly, only
those which are explicitly used.


On 7/23/07, Jeremy Privett <jeremy@peak8solutions.com> wrote:
> Stanislav,
>
> Absolutely not the case. Take a look at C++, C#, even Python. The
> "namespaces" implementation of those languages is mostly consistent
> (even if Python doesn't call it that).
>
> You're not helping developers at all with this implementation. If
you're
> working with a large library and have to import a lot of classes, the
> way this works is nothing but a pain. We would be better off not using
> namespaces at all, in this case. Thus, the problem has not been
solved.
>
> Also, for the implementation to be complete, Core Developers and
> Extension Developers would need to namespace their classes /
functions.
> And that, undoubtedly, is a LOT of work. I can understand this being
the
> justification for implementing namespaces in the way it's been
> implemented, because all of this other stuff in the global namespace,
> but you still need to offer developers *some* way of importing
> everything out of a namespace. I absolutely will have upwards to close
> to 25 - 30 classes in a single namespace. And sometimes more. To be
able
> to import them all is an absolute necessity for this implementation to
> be remotely feasible. Having an import block at the top of files
that's
> that huge just doesn't make any sense. And that doesn't even consider
> the fact that I may be using OTHER libraries as well that may be
> namespaced.
>
> PEAR is a perfect example of this. Look at all the libraries that
exist
> there. I would absolutely love to just:
>
> import PEAR;
> import PEAR::HTTP;
> import PEAR::Image;
>
> And not have to worry about going through and picking out every little
> individual class that I need. And with all of the languages I
mentioned
> before, that is *exactly* how it works. Of course, we're back to the
> namespacing of the PHP Core and Extensions. Which is really the main
> blocker to any serious namespaces implementation, beyond what's
> currently patched to HEAD today, correct?
>
> I hope you can better see my viewpoint, now that I actually had the
time
> to sit down and type out a more coherent reply. This implementation
and
> the unicode.semantics discussion have to be the most frustrating
points
> PHP6 has for me, right now.
>
> Thanks.
>
> ---
> Jeremy Privett
> Software Developer
> Peak8 Solutions
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stanislav Malyshev [mailto:stas@zend.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 1:39 AM
> To: Jeremy Privett
> Cc: Derick Rethans; Markus Fischer; internals
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Question about Namespace patch
>
> > And that's exactly why this implementation isn't intuitive. As far
as
> I
> > can see from the way it's been explained, so far, that is not
> possible.
>
> No implementation is "intuitive", unless by "intuitive" you mean
"works
> as in that other language I know". Too bad in each of these languages
it
>
> works differently :)
> --
> Stanislav Malyshev, Zend Software Architect
> stas@zend.com   http://www.zend.com/
> (408)253-8829   MSN: stas@zend.com
>
> --
> PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>


--=20
Alexey Zakhlestin
http://blog.milkfarmsoft.com/